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[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:17:45 EDT from darknetuser

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2021-05-02 14:03 from ParanoidDelusions
In which case, you've still LOST the wager. There is an afterlife -

there is intelligent design, there is a purpose, it wasn't all random

- and atheists were wrong. 

EVEN if we're all fucked. 

This ties with an idea that popped up yesterday while I was doing barn work.


Worshipping a deity that forbids worshipping other deities is actually a suboptimal wager to make. If you worship the Christian God, you are forbidden from worshipping other gods as per the scriptures. However, if I worship Odin, I am also allowed to worship Mash and Hades and the River Ondines and Zork (and in fact many ancient cultures worshipped a wild mix of deities). Worshipping the Christian God locks you into worshipping ONE so your chances of worshipping the right one are less than the chances of a pagan worshipping thirty.

Even then, if you must worship a monotheistic God, then you are better served by worshipping Allah. This is because Allah explicitly promises hell to unbelievers, yet not all CHristian interpretations of God consider hell real, or "as bad a place," or consider God may be merciful towards unbelievers. If Allah is the right interpretation and you worship Christ, Allah will burn you r ass, while if you whorship Allah and the true interpretation is a merciful variant of the CHristian God, you are much less screwed, so the correct curse of action for you is to gear up with explosives, walk into a crowded market, and scream "Allahu Akbar" while blowing yourself up to pieces.

Food for thought.

[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:22:11 EDT from darknetuser

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Earth Theory. In a universe without higher purpose, meaning and
creation - there is no reason to be moral. There is no reason to be
amoral either. There are *no* reasons to be anything but whatever is

most rewarding to each individual organism. That is the *inescapable*

of *actual* atheism. If you believe in natural law as an atheist,
you've simply replaced one artificial construct of humanity that
people believe in on faith with another one. 


You could argue that societies which have rules have a better chance of having each member have more fun, therefore even in the most nihilistic of realities there is value to the proposition of following social codes.

Even wild animals have rules.

[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:35:36 EDT from darknetuser

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* Born before the 'true book' was written.  Countless generations
existed before the 'rules' were documented. Are they also screwed or
did they get an automatic pass?


I think it is established in the New Testament that God was the Lord and Protector of His People until he sent Christ and embraced the rest of mankind. So non-believers died before Christ are probably screwed because they didn't have protection from God - ie He pretty much declared they were not their problem until He decided to take everybody under His umbrella.

[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:42:54 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Still a singular obsessive fixation on the Abrahamic, Christian God. 

You're not so much an atheist - as you're angry at Christianity. So much so that no amount of blatant steering of the conversation AWAY from Abrahamic Christianity can prevent you from trying to steer the discussion back to that particular belief system. 

This has nothing to do with the Christian God at this point - but it is the only hill you are comfortable defending your claim of "Atheism" on. I get it - you're angry at Christ, the Christian God, and Christians. 

That isn't really my thesis - and I'm not concerned with them. It is Atheists I think are ridiculous - with or without Christian or Hebrew spiritual traditions existing. 

 

Mon May 03 2021 11:17:45 EDT from darknetuser
2021-05-02 14:03 from ParanoidDelusions
In which case, you've still LOST the wager. There is an afterlife -

there is intelligent design, there is a purpose, it wasn't all random

- and atheists were wrong. 

EVEN if we're all fucked. 

This ties with an idea that popped up yesterday while I was doing barn work.


Worshipping a deity that forbids worshipping other deities is actually a suboptimal wager to make. If you worship the Christian God, you are forbidden from worshipping other gods as per the scriptures. However, if I worship Odin, I am also allowed to worship Mash and Hades and the River Ondines and Zork (and in fact many ancient cultures worshipped a wild mix of deities). Worshipping the Christian God locks you into worshipping ONE so your chances of worshipping the right one are less than the chances of a pagan worshipping thirty.

Even then, if you must worship a monotheistic God, then you are better served by worshipping Allah. This is because Allah explicitly promises hell to unbelievers, yet not all CHristian interpretations of God consider hell real, or "as bad a place," or consider God may be merciful towards unbelievers. If Allah is the right interpretation and you worship Christ, Allah will burn you r ass, while if you whorship Allah and the true interpretation is a merciful variant of the CHristian God, you are much less screwed, so the correct curse of action for you is to gear up with explosives, walk into a crowded market, and scream "Allahu Akbar" while blowing yourself up to pieces.

Food for thought.

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:46:27 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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You could argue that in any social order, those who are ABOVE the majority of the rules have the most fun. 


As an atheist, the objective would naturally be to be in the segment generally ABOVE the rules. 

In the pride, only the patriarch of the male lions gets to have sex and offspring. The rules *suck* if you're not the pride's leader and you're a male. 

THIS is natural order. There are lots of analogies to this in our own society. 

The only way that a subordinate lion gets to have sex and offspring, is by physically defeating the current pack leader. The pack leader will inevitably, eventually be defeated and deposed - but until then - it is BEST being King. 




Mon May 03 2021 11:22:11 EDT from darknetuser
Earth Theory. In a universe without higher purpose, meaning and
creation - there is no reason to be moral. There is no reason to be
amoral either. There are *no* reasons to be anything but whatever is

most rewarding to each individual organism. That is the *inescapable*

of *actual* atheism. If you believe in natural law as an atheist,
you've simply replaced one artificial construct of humanity that
people believe in on faith with another one. 


You could argue that societies which have rules have a better chance of having each member have more fun, therefore even in the most nihilistic of realities there is value to the proposition of following social codes.

Even wild animals have rules.

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 11:57:44 EDT from Nurb432

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Well, lets say for a second this was all true.  Not sure id want to be part of that band. Sounds like an uncaring prick, and you may not get what you think from him anyway..

Mon May 03 2021 11:35:36 AM EDT from darknetuser
* Born before the 'true book' was written.  Countless generations
existed before the 'rules' were documented. Are they also screwed or
did they get an automatic pass?


I think it is established in the New Testament that God was the Lord and Protector of His People until he sent Christ and embraced the rest of mankind. So non-believers died before Christ are probably screwed because they didn't have protection from God - ie He pretty much declared they were not their problem until He decided to take everybody under His umbrella.

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 12:05:37 EDT from darknetuser

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2021-05-03 11:42 from ParanoidDelusions
Still a singular obsessive fixation on the Abrahamic, Christian
God. 

The Pascal Wager was formulated in relation to the Christian God.

I don't consider myself an atheist, much less a militant one, and I certainly am not angry at Christianity. I am just indifferent.

Still you frame your arguments in such a way they hold merit only when a certain set of assumptions are made, which happen to be characteristic of modern Abrahamic religions. Hence all the discussion about them. If you want to stop talking about Abraham then re-frame the wager.

[#] Mon May 03 2021 12:08:43 EDT from darknetuser

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2021-05-03 11:46 from ParanoidDelusions
You could argue that in any social order, those who are ABOVE the
majority of the rules have the most fun. 



There is that too. The proposition of being an immoral bastard also holds value, but only if you can make it work.

In my personal life I follow a simple rules. I am an immoral bastard towards those who mistreat me and I am kind to those who haven't mistreated me yet. It seems to maximize results for me :)

[#] Mon May 03 2021 13:15:55 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I have reformulated Pascal's wager outside the context of Abrahamic Christianity. You refuse to entertain that, and insist on bringing it back to Abrahamic Christianity. 

I believe if you were truly *indifferent* - you would see the inarguable strength of my argument. 

The wager implicitly holds merit only if certain assumptions are made. That is - the assumption is that there IS or is NOT a creator - that there is or is not intelligent design. That is the baseline set of assumptions. We can throw out every more granular assumption above that in coming to the conclusion that the atheists wager is a bad bet. You want to broaden the assumptions until you can go, "What if Zork wants to just crush your skull." 


 

Mon May 03 2021 12:05:37 EDT from darknetuser
2021-05-03 11:42 from ParanoidDelusions
Still a singular obsessive fixation on the Abrahamic, Christian
God. 

The Pascal Wager was formulated in relation to the Christian God.

I don't consider myself an atheist, much less a militant one, and I certainly am not angry at Christianity. I am just indifferent.

Still you frame your arguments in such a way they hold merit only when a certain set of assumptions are made, which happen to be characteristic of modern Abrahamic religions. Hence all the discussion about them. If you want to stop talking about Abraham then re-frame the wager.

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 13:17:32 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Atheists tend to also frequently be bitter Libertarians that are disillusioned that wealthy and powerful billionaires can do what they please, but they can barely keep their late model, beat up Honda running. 

They really don't *like* the natural order of the universe. 

Mon May 03 2021 12:08:43 EDT from darknetuser
2021-05-03 11:46 from ParanoidDelusions
You could argue that in any social order, those who are ABOVE the
majority of the rules have the most fun. 



There is that too. The proposition of being an immoral bastard also holds value, but only if you can make it work.

In my personal life I follow a simple rules. I am an immoral bastard towards those who mistreat me and I am kind to those who haven't mistreated me yet. It seems to maximize results for me :)

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 13:22:33 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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And they don't really have a satisfactory answer for the natural order of inequity and inequality in the universe, except for, "When you die, it doesn't matter anyhow." 

At least the Christians have an abiding faith that the immoral bastard Billionaire will most likely burn for eternity in hell for his sins, while they are greatly rewarded in the afterlife. 

Again, if you're wagering on the way it works - at least the Theists are optimists about there being purpose and reason and ultimate accountability. The Atheists lead to the inevitable conclusion, "if you can get away with it and it pleases you, you're an idiot if you don't do it." 

 

Mon May 03 2021 13:17:32 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Atheists tend to also frequently be bitter Libertarians that are disillusioned that wealthy and powerful billionaires can do what they please, but they can barely keep their late model, beat up Honda running. 

They really don't *like* the natural order of the universe. 

Mon May 03 2021 12:08:43 EDT from darknetuser
2021-05-03 11:46 from ParanoidDelusions
You could argue that in any social order, those who are ABOVE the
majority of the rules have the most fun. 



There is that too. The proposition of being an immoral bastard also holds value, but only if you can make it work.

In my personal life I follow a simple rules. I am an immoral bastard towards those who mistreat me and I am kind to those who haven't mistreated me yet. It seems to maximize results for me :)

 



 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 14:37:32 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I would take Darknetuser's theological interpretation of the Christian bible with generous doses of salt, Nurb. ;) 

What he is describing below sounds more like the Marvel Comic's adaptation of The Amazing Jesus Christ. 

Jesus on film / The Dissolve

Mon May 03 2021 11:57:44 EDT from Nurb432

Well, lets say for a second this was all true.  Not sure id want to be part of that band. Sounds like an uncaring prick, and you may not get what you think from him anyway..

Mon May 03 2021 11:35:36 AM EDT from darknetuser
* Born before the 'true book' was written.  Countless generations
existed before the 'rules' were documented. Are they also screwed or
did they get an automatic pass?


I think it is established in the New Testament that God was the Lord and Protector of His People until he sent Christ and embraced the rest of mankind. So non-believers died before Christ are probably screwed because they didn't have protection from God - ie He pretty much declared they were not their problem until He decided to take everybody under His umbrella.

 



 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 15:30:41 EDT from zooer

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Can we have just one religious room?



[#] Mon May 03 2021 16:24:03 EDT from Nurb432

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Topics stray

but organized religion is bottom feeder territory

Mon May 03 2021 03:30:41 PM EDT from zooer

Can we have just one religious room?



 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 18:40:07 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Do you have a moment to hear the good news about accepting FPGA as your personal silver bullet in retro-gaming? 


Mon May 03 2021 16:24:03 EDT from Nurb432

Topics stray

but organized religion is bottom feeder territory

Mon May 03 2021 03:30:41 PM EDT from zooer

Can we have just one religious room?



 



 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 18:51:26 EDT from Nurb432

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lol



[#] Wed May 05 2021 10:56:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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because the point I'm trying to make is that *purely* from the
perspective of Pascal's Wager - atheism is a bad bet. 

Dunno. I've been a believer my whole life so I never really thought about it.

Also, I went straight from BASIC to C at the age of 15, so Pascal never really interested me.

[#] Wed May 05 2021 13:34:03 EDT from Nurb432

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LoL

 

Wed May 05 2021 10:56:01 AM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
Also, I went straight from BASIC to C at the age of 15, so Pascal never really interested me.

 



[#] Wed May 05 2021 14:01:19 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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You've still played his wager - and you're playing the smarter side of the table, even if you don't know it or why. 

 

Wed May 05 2021 10:56:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
Also, I went straight from BASIC to C at the age of 15, so Pascal never really interested me.

 



[#] Fri May 07 2021 12:24:05 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Perhaps. I don't think of it that way. Instead, I choose to acknowledge the One who *made* the table, the casino the table is in, and the universe the casino is in.

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