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[#] Fri Feb 12 2021 16:46:31 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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If you haven't read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", do so now. It explains the winning formula in great detail. BSD and GNU were developed in cathedral mode, and it held them both back. None of it has anything to do with package managers.

[#] Fri Feb 12 2021 17:15:36 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Again, developer perspective, vs. end-user perspective. 

You could have built in with Mormon Temple model - and if the package managers didn't allow average noobs to install Firebird, nothing *nix was *ever* going to catch on outside of with people who could figure out all the bizarre dependencies to get a piece of software installed. 

 

Fri Feb 12 2021 16:46:31 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
If you haven't read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", do so now. It explains the winning formula in great detail. BSD and GNU were developed in cathedral mode, and it held them both back. None of it has anything to do with package managers.

 



[#] Sat Feb 13 2021 05:20:10 EST from darknetuser

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2021-02-08 08:36 from Nurb432
Trying to explain to a guy at the office why Linux is becoming bad

and this popped up in my regular feed. ( well actually a link to it,

from a story that was written today that linked to this
not-so-old-story.. It was not one of those 'we see you are talking

about something we lets suggest it...' moments )

says it much better than i could.

https://www.unixsheikh.com/articles/why-you-should-migrate-everything-

from-linux-to-bsd.html

 

For me its "migrate back"... 


That link blocks Tor.

Do you care to offer a brief summary?

I have been migrating things to BSD since the Debian Lenny days. Net and OpenBSD don't have much support but they are uite serious about the stuff they code or port.

[#] Sat Feb 13 2021 15:47:39 EST from Nurb432

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BSD, while it was never 'bad', has improved their binary package management system, and the ports tree was always dead simple to use.  ( true, it took longer, but that was the intended away to install something. Binaries, you can paint your self into a corner with.  )

I dont think BSD lost, its still there and still being used. It just didnt take the desktop market.  I blame lack of good marketing, so an inferior product was picked by the uninformed masses.  

 

And yes the article was a bit much in some areas, but it did have a lot of good points i think.



[#] Sat Feb 13 2021 17:50:34 EST from Nurb432

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It boils down to fragmentation of the community in general,  and how corporate interests are infecting/manipulating development on a wide scale. With a bit of bashing GPL as a virus.  ( which it is.. ) That it impedes some people from adopting/contributing.  They dont like being held hostage. 


BSD has none of those shortcomings.

 

( From what i get out of it, that is the SUPER short version. he of course provided examples of each of his viewpoints )

Sat Feb 13 2021 05:20:10 EST from darknetuser
That link blocks Tor.

Do you care to offer a brief summary?

I have been migrating things to BSD since the Debian Lenny days. Net and OpenBSD don't have much support but they are uite serious about the stuff they code or port.

 



[#] Sun Feb 14 2021 12:56:51 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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I dont think BSD lost, its still there and still being used. It just
didnt take the desktop market. 

It also didn't take the server market, the mobile market, the cloud market, the infrastructure market, or the supercomputing market. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, it's just there.

[#] Sun Feb 14 2021 16:51:13 EST from darknetuser

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2021-02-13 17:50 from Nurb432
It boils down to fragmentation of the community in general,  and how
corporate interests are infecting/manipulating development on a wide
scale. With a bit of bashing GPL as a virus.  ( which it is.. ) That
it impedes some people from adopting/contributing.  They dont like
being held hostage. 


BSD has none of those shortcomings.

 

( From what i get out of it, that is the SUPER short version. he of
course provided examples of each of his viewpoints )

Thanks for commenting!

[#] Tue Feb 16 2021 12:01:53 EST from LoanShark

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"Windoze is killing the world by burning up processor cycles with its
fat kernel!" 

Besides being ridiculous, it's not even true; Windoze has demonstrably better power management than Linux on laptops (S0ix/Modern Suspend are actually implemented correctly, Linux does not have its shit together in this area.)

My Ryzen desktop is a different story, but that's AMD and ASUS fault

[#] Tue Feb 16 2021 15:55:38 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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You sound like a bootlicker. ;) 

I was somewhere that people were arguing about the impact on the environment caused by wasted PC cycles. I can't remember exactly why. Had to do with retro computing. 

Anyhow, I was like, "I make a 20 mile commute 5 days a week all by myself in a 2500 series Denali diesel that I don't use as an actual work truck. But if you would like to use less cycles to help offset my carbon footprint, I totally support your sacrifice." 

 

Tue Feb 16 2021 12:01:53 EST from LoanShark
Besides being ridiculous, it's not even true; Windoze has demonstrably better power management than Linux on laptops (S0ix/Modern Suspend are actually implemented correctly, Linux does not have its shit together in this area.)

My Ryzen desktop is a different story, but that's AMD and ASUS fault

 



[#] Tue Feb 16 2021 16:25:23 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Yeah, there's no need to get into environmental debates, that just gets people annoyed. I think the idea that you can use less energy to complete the same amount of work speaks for itself. Somehow I doubt a few CPU cycles here and there is going to make a difference with a kernel. After all, when people build software these days, the first thing they do is bring in gigamegs of frameworks and libraries to make the task easier. Why aren't they hand-coding in assembler to save as many cycles as they can?

[#] Tue Feb 16 2021 17:15:12 EST from LoanShark

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It's all about battery life. Or it would be if modern laptops weren't so damn unreliable--my Dell is starting to show some quirks, after just 12 months. And yes, we have already established that I AM HITLER. Tee hee.

[#] Wed Feb 17 2021 15:51:53 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I recall the general argument. It was that code is sloppy now, because there are so many spare cycles available that you don't have to make it efficient. 

I can get behind that to a certain extent. I mean.... part of that is that the frameworks have gotten bloated to make it easier to program, which has made programming more *accessible* to more people, and that seems like a natural trade off. The more powerful computers become, the better we can make them at understanding language that is EASIER for humans to learn and speak - but that power comes at increased power consumption to drive faster instructions. 


This is just a basic physics thing - and I don't think it is limited to technology, system architecture and programming. Larger more complex systems tend to become less efficient but faster and more powerful, but generate/produce more waste as a rule. 

The fact that they tied it into global climate change - I agree - actually doesn't make meaningful discussion about the actually topic easier. 


Fuck, I'm usually able to tune distractions out, but right now I'm in a room with someone and I can't manage to focus my thoughts over the volume of their discussions. This message took me 4 times as long to compose as it should have. I'll have to try and log in late.r 

 






[#] Wed Feb 17 2021 17:22:11 EST from Nurb432

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Right, mobile and HUGE data centers, are where real efficiency does make a measurable difference. Not so much a "lets save the planet'", more like "damn this costs too much to run" or "why does my battery suck "

But as mentioned, better kernels are often negated by poor app coding. 

 

Tue Feb 16 2021 17:15:12 EST from LoanShark

It's all about battery life. Or it would be if modern laptops weren't so damn unreliable--my Dell is starting to show some quirks, after just 12 months. And yes, we have already established that I AM HITLER. Tee hee.

 



[#] Wed Feb 17 2021 17:23:24 EST from Nurb432

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It helps polarize the argument, and make the entire exercise pointless.. 

Wed Feb 17 2021 15:51:53 EST from ParanoidDelusions

The fact that they tied it into global climate change - I agree - actually doesn't make meaningful discussion about the actually topic easier. 



[#] Wed Feb 17 2021 18:11:40 EST from LoanShark

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2021-02-17 15:51 from ParanoidDelusions
I recall the general argument. It was that code is sloppy now,
because there are so many spare cycles available that you don't have
to make it efficient. 

I just don't agree with it. Some code may be sloppy, sure. But most machines spend the vast majority of their time idle, waiting for keystrokes and rendering low-spoons webpages.

[#] Wed Feb 17 2021 19:41:09 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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100%

Wed Feb 17 2021 17:23:24 EST from Nurb432

It helps polarize the argument, and make the entire exercise pointless.. 

Wed Feb 17 2021 15:51:53 EST from ParanoidDelusions

The fact that they tied it into global climate change - I agree - actually doesn't make meaningful discussion about the actually topic easier. 



 



[#] Thu Feb 18 2021 09:19:40 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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I just don't agree with it. Some code may be sloppy, sure. But most
machines spend the vast majority of their time idle, waiting for
keystrokes and rendering low-spoons webpages.

Right. I can take a look at any of the cloud pods in my data centers, single tenant or multi tenant, and what I see is that they are *not* CPU constrained.
The first resource we usually run out of is RAM, the second is channel bandwidth.

That's why when you buy software like VMware in a pay-for-what-you-use license structure, it's based on how much vRAM is activated, not on CPU cycles. It's also why the Beasts of Seattle charge you by wall clock time, not by CPU cycles.

I won't say something stupid like "3 GHz ought to be enough for anybody" but the focus in hardware development right now is not on raw speed, but speed to power consumption ratio, and channel latency and things like that. No one, not even data center operators, is looking at their power bill and saying "wow, I sure wish the kernel was more efficient."

[#] Sat Feb 20 2021 09:12:27 EST from Nurb432

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Our DB servers are pegged . All.. the.. time..



[#] Sat Feb 20 2021 12:21:13 EST from LoanShark

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2021-02-20 09:12 from Nurb432
Our DB servers are pegged . All.. the.. time..


I've worked at shops like that. In one case, before cloud hosting became a thing, one of the sysadmins was flipping out and angry at management because they wouldn't approve a hardware upgrade.

These days though, it's so easy. Log into the Amazon RDS admin console and change your instance type from db.t3.medium to db.t3.large or whatever. You'll see several seconds to maybe a minute of downtime for migration to occur, and then, problem solved.

Where I work now, we have the lightest DB utilization in the world.

[#] Mon Feb 22 2021 08:32:54 EST from DutchessMike

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I agree that cloud computing has made it easier to size hardware to workload, but it only kicked the hardware problem down the road.  In your example case, he could still be pissed even if the systems he manages are running on slow hardware because management won't approve the revised budget for the upgrade.  Amazon makes billions nickel-and-diming folks to death. :)

 

Sat Feb 20 2021 12:21:13 EST from LoanShark
2021-02-20 09:12 from Nurb432
Our DB servers are pegged . All.. the.. time..


I've worked at shops like that. In one case, before cloud hosting became a thing, one of the sysadmins was flipping out and angry at management because they wouldn't approve a hardware upgrade.

These days though, it's so easy. Log into the Amazon RDS admin console and change your instance type from db.t3.medium to db.t3.large or whatever. You'll see several seconds to maybe a minute of downtime for migration to occur, and then, problem solved.

Where I work now, we have the lightest DB utilization in the world.

 



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