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[#] Mon Feb 08 2021 18:40:03 EST from Nurb432

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Nah,windows is of course worse..  But Linux is becoming more and more like windows every time i turn around.  

 

Lennart Pottering, he's like an infectious disease. Worst thing to ever touch the community.

Mon Feb 08 2021 15:38:48 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Steve? Steve Ballmer? Is that you?

 



[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 08:59:19 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Disagree. The worst thing ever to touch the community was Miguel de Icaza.

[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 11:04:09 EST from Nurb432

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Due to gnome or mono?

Not fond of gnome myself, but didnt GTK come out of it? ( which is ok )



[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 12:55:58 EST from nonservator

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Didn't GTK come out of GIMP, not GNOME?

Also, you reminded me of this gem. Bless the archives.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303044657/http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/981577277/981620321/index_html

"This is why Linus is the man, and you people are just chumps."



[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 14:26:36 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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GNOME was the original effort by Microsoft employee Miguel de Icaza to derail the Linux desktop right when it was about to get a unified desktop framework (KDE). The schism was, to Microsoft, worth every cent they secretly paid him. (Fact check: TRUE)

Mono was an attempt to do the same thing but it failed to gain any traction.

[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 19:16:45 EST from Nurb432

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Not liking GNOME from the start, i missed all of that apparently.  

Tue Feb 09 2021 14:26:36 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
GNOME was the original effort by Microsoft employee Miguel de Icaza to derail the Linux desktop right when it was about to get a unified desktop framework (KDE). The schism was, to Microsoft, worth every cent they secretly paid him. (Fact check: TRUE)

Mono was an attempt to do the same thing but it failed to gain any traction.

 



[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 19:18:13 EST from Nurb432

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Could be, i didnt really use it either, but from what i gathered it wasn't all that bad.. TKinter for me :) 

Tue Feb 09 2021 12:55:58 EST from nonservator

Didn't GTK come out of GIMP, not GNOME?

Also, you reminded me of this gem. Bless the archives.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303044657/http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/981577277/981620321/index_html

"This is why Linus is the man, and you people are just chumps."



 



[#] Tue Feb 09 2021 19:22:35 EST from Nurb432

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From their web page:

"GTK is a free and open-source project maintained by GNOME and an active community of contributors."



[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 08:25:38 EST from nonservator

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Created by, not maintained by.

"GTK was originally designed and used in the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) as a replacement of the Motif toolkit; at some point Peter Mattis became disenchanted with Motif and began to write his own GUI toolkit named the GIMP toolkit and had successfully replaced Motif by the 0.60 release of GIMP. Finally GTK was re-written to be object-oriented and was renamed GTK+."



[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 09:14:44 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Nor was GNOME originally intended to be a desktop environment. "Gnu Network Object Model Environment" was originally supposed to be a COM/OLE type of thing for Linux (again, because Miguel de Idiot was a Microsoft mole). Then when KDE was about to become the standard, Microsoft told their mole to turn GNOME into a desktop. So he and his buddies bolted GTK to it and started sabotaging standards.

Poettering has got nothing on this guy.

[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 14:49:45 EST from LoanShark

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2021-02-05 17:43 from IGnatius T Foobar

Playing around with the WireGuard VPN this week. Very happy with it

so far.

Really easy to configure, far more lightweight than anything else out

there, and stateless. Me likes.



Take a look at pritunl too, if you like 2FA.

[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 14:51:42 EST from LoanShark

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I still don't like the way KDE looks. Sosumi.

[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 16:26:46 EST from Nurb432

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It did ( does? ) have the advantages of the stuff under the hood. Libraries, IPC, etc.

But, if you dont use KDE apps, then the framework is overhead.   Myself i moved to lxde a long time ago. "just enough" for what i need but not the bloat that does me no good.

 

Wed Feb 10 2021 14:51:42 EST from LoanShark

I still don't like the way KDE looks. Sosumi.

 



[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 16:27:19 EST from Nurb432

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Hey, we have a foundation now.. Cool. We are somebody! 

 

http://p9f.org/



[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 20:20:18 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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I still don't like the way KDE looks. Sosumi.

That's totally legit. But was it worth the baggage of establishing two separate desktop environments with two completely separate app ecosystems, dashing any hope that there would be "one Linux" to train end users on? Looks can be skinned, tweaked, chromed-out, that shit be dope.

20 years later, maybe it doesn't matter as much anymore, when every operating system (yes even Apple) has an inconsistent UI across different applications, and they change it all the time anyway, and even if they didn't, people who develop browser-based apps are still free to do whatever they want.

In the end, the KDE/GNOME schism was a colossal waste of time, time that could have been used to develop a single app ecosystem. I still believe Miguel de Icaza was paid by Microsoft to do it on purpose.

[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 20:24:38 EST from Nurb432

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Interface consistency is one reason i bought staroffice, back when it still was an integrated package, including mail and a browser. 



[#] Wed Feb 10 2021 20:28:28 EST from Nurb432

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Oh, and Ashton Tate's "framework:, many years earlier.

Wed Feb 10 2021 20:24:38 EST from Nurb432

Interface consistency is one reason i bought staroffice, back when it still was an integrated package, including mail and a browser. 



 



[#] Fri Feb 12 2021 09:11:17 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I encountered a number of problems with this article. First - a huge turn-off for me in any article is when someone tries to conflate responsible global citizenship with the size of the kernel in your OS as it relates to global climate change. 

"Windoze is killing the world by burning up processor cycles with its fat kernel!" 

I mean, I'm all for maximizing the efficiency of whatever as long as we're not talking about a less comfortable user experience justified by "being green". Once we start to get into, "sure, it means we can cram more of you onto a single flight and increase our profits, but that isn't the reason we're making you STAND on a 12 hour flight, ass to crotch with the passengers to all sides of you - we're doing it to be an ecologically responsible company! 

"All those extra cycles, combined by all the processors of the world -" STFU. All the reduction between a light, fast kernel and a bloated one with extra features isn't going to save the planet... 

"But if we did it for EVERYTHING that -" STFU again. This is the path of PETA logic. It reveals a strategy of a death by a thousand cuts. It'll start with CPU cycles, and the end goal is I'll be in a bare concrete "tiny living compartment" in a "factory worker block municipal building" and never see anything OUTSIDE of that building because "we have to do this to save the planet". Meanwhile - the super rich will have WAY more private land to enjoy without the annoying presence of the common working class. 

And then this part below, is true - but this is just a general developer attitude, even if you work in a closed source place. It just happens to be a bigger problem with FOSS projects, and it is a culture thing. I also think it is an Eastern-European thing. I've got a couple of working theories on why it is - but one is, "Autists are drawn to development, with its very binary nature and the way it justifies isolation from the rest of society," and "Eastern Europeans have a very blunt, candid, frank attitude where they speak plainly and that makes them come across as dicks to people from more English cultures that value being polite and politic in dealing with disagreeable people or events." 

It could be a combination of the two. Linus may have set the "archtype" for FOSS developer attitudes decades ago. 


If there is any one big problem with kernel development and Linux it is the complete disconnection of the development process from normal users. You know, the ones who constitute 99.9% of the Linux user base. The Linux kernel mailing list is the way to communicate with the kernel developers. To put it mildly, the Linux kernel mailing list (lkml) is about as scary a communication forum as they come. Most people are absolutely terrified of mailing the list lest they get flamed for their inexperience, an inappropriate bug report, being stupid or whatever. ... I think the kernel developers at large haven't got the faintest idea just how big the problems in userspace are.

Mon Feb 08 2021 08:36:06 EST from Nurb432

Trying to explain to a guy at the office why Linux is becoming bad and this popped up in my regular feed. ( well actually a link to it, from a story that was written today that linked to this not-so-old-story.. It was not one of those 'we see you are talking about something we lets suggest it...' moments )

says it much better than i could.

https://www.unixsheikh.com/articles/why-you-should-migrate-everything-from-linux-to-bsd.html

 

For me its "migrate back"... 



 



[#] Fri Feb 12 2021 09:28:51 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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It's not even worth discussing. Noise like this has been getting generated by know-it-all dickheads for decades now. Linux won because it got the job done, even though BSD had a giant head start.

Now let's talk about the energy consumption of a kernel. For this discussion let's set aside the climate nonsense and simply agree that lower energy consumption is better, if all other variables are equal. How does the total on-disk size of the kernel make a difference in energy consumption? Most of what is shipped with the kernel is modules, and on any given system the majority of those modules are not running, or even loaded.

That's the model with Linux: get kernel modules adopted upstream so they can be kept consistent with the rest of the kernel. It has advantages and disadvantages. I do continue to call Linus to task for not maintaining a stable kernel ABI. It makes software distribution difficult and is one of the reasons Linux did not thrive as a consumer PC operating system. The community has had to work around this with hacks like DKMS, which seem to work most of the time, but it sure would be nice to just ship a driver and have it loaded.

Go have fun with BSD if you want to. I think most of these whiners are just unhappy that Linux is mainstream now and they want to go somewhere that they can be different again.

[#] Fri Feb 12 2021 12:03:27 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I don't know that Linux won because it got the job done. 

It won because it built up buzz and momentum. I mean, I've run Solaris/CDE, BSD and Linux - and Linux is what I stuck with. 

But I ran a LOT of Linux distros and I pretty much dislike them all for the same reason I disliked Solaris and BSD. Package management was too complex. Just installing and configuring basic programs was a headache. 

So, in my mind, Debian was always the only Linux worth considering. It gave birth to a bunch of variations, like Ubuntu, which dumbed down Linux and helped give it critical mass. 

Because YUM and RPMS suck. 

I think that Debian's package management is probably the #1 reason why Linux has any advantage over any other *nix. It made the entire OS more accessible - and once Debian gets new users over the hump - then they can learn more complicated Linux distros like CentOS that are better for production DC environments. 

But again - I think a huge part of the difference in perception is that you're a developer, and I'm a systems guy. The reasons why *nix is popular with scripters are probably related to why systems guys actually typically dislike Linux. 

 

Fri Feb 12 2021 09:28:51 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
It's not even worth discussing. Noise like this has been getting generated by know-it-all dickheads for decades now. Linux won because it got the job done, even though BSD had a giant head start.

Now let's talk about the energy consumption of a kernel. For this discussion let's set aside the climate nonsense and simply agree that lower energy consumption is better, if all other variables are equal. How does the total on-disk size of the kernel make a difference in energy consumption? Most of what is shipped with the kernel is modules, and on any given system the majority of those modules are not running, or even loaded.

That's the model with Linux: get kernel modules adopted upstream so they can be kept consistent with the rest of the kernel. It has advantages and disadvantages. I do continue to call Linus to task for not maintaining a stable kernel ABI. It makes software distribution difficult and is one of the reasons Linux did not thrive as a consumer PC operating system. The community has had to work around this with hacks like DKMS, which seem to work most of the time, but it sure would be nice to just ship a driver and have it loaded.

Go have fun with BSD if you want to. I think most of these whiners are just unhappy that Linux is mainstream now and they want to go somewhere that they can be different again.

 



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