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[#] Mon Feb 07 2022 08:22:06 EST from Nurb432

Subject: Renting Features

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Just read a blurb today about automakers expanding the use of 'monthly fees' for features and making billions.  Like Heated seats

"they already do it for things like auto-dimming lights' 

WTF. its MY car i BOUGHT IT I DID NOT LEASE IT.  Fuck them.  



[#] Mon Feb 07 2022 16:40:05 EST from LoanShark

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The problem with being flashed with BM3 without a license is - I
can't reflash it or remap it. It passed smog - and I feel like the

normally the previous owner, if they did in fact have BM3, would have done the license transfer thing and re-locked the ECU back to stock. It's in their best interests if they were buying another BMW, they could keep their license.

BM3 is not the only flash platform out there, they have some competitors, this is where it gets difficult.

the dealer should be able to put it back to stock regardless, though you might not want them to do that

[#] Tue Feb 08 2022 23:07:57 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Yup. I get the feeling like the M235i wasn't owned by... or, WAS owned by, a fairly typical 2 series buyer - might be a better description. It has a lot of "boy racer who had a kid and needed to get something more pedestrian" vibe to it. 

 

Mon Feb 07 2022 16:40:05 EST from LoanShark
The problem with being flashed with BM3 without a license is - I
can't reflash it or remap it. It passed smog - and I feel like the

normally the previous owner, if they did in fact have BM3, would have done the license transfer thing and re-locked the ECU back to stock. It's in their best interests if they were buying another BMW, they could keep their license.

BM3 is not the only flash platform out there, they have some competitors, this is where it gets difficult.

the dealer should be able to put it back to stock regardless, though you might not want them to do that

 



[#] Thu Mar 03 2022 15:23:27 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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Just read a blurb today about automakers expanding the use of
'monthly fees' for features and making billions.  Like Heated seats

I read about that last fall when the first batch of 2019 Toyotas with "rented features" started having their three year "free trials" of features such as heated seats and remote starters expire. There was a gigantic uproar about it, and I think they might have actually caved and released the "rented" features permanently to the owners.

Everyone seems to agree, it's one thing to charge ongoing fees for something that requires ongoing costs to provide (like satellite radio) but when the one-time manufacturing cost has already been absorbed, it is usurious to make the customer pay for it forever. This also triggered all of the usual discussions about right-to-repair, DRM-constrained hardware, etc. etc.

By the way, there are no "leases" on passenger vehicles anymore. They still call it a lease, but if you read through the agreement you will see that it's actually a standard auto loan that has a monthly payment similar to a lease, and with a guaranteed buy-back at the end making it behave like a lease. The reason for this is that some number of years ago, people involved in accidents started suing "the owner of the vehicle" which for a traditional lease would be the leasing company. It's the same reason you can't honestly say "haha, the bank owns more of my house than I do" because they don't; they only have the ability to take it away from you if you don't make the payments, but lienholders cannot be named in a lawsuit.

[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 01:45:54 EST from ParanoidDelusions

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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They did cave. 

Listen - it is all in the ECU - and the ECU can be hacked - and... if they throw down this line - not only will it be hacked... 

But consumers who don't know how to hack or are afraid to hack will simply buy from someone else. 

It is a lose/lose for the auto manufacturers. They realized this right away. 

 

 

Thu Mar 03 2022 15:23:27 EST from IGnatius T Foobar Subject: Re: Renting Features
Just read a blurb today about automakers expanding the use of
'monthly fees' for features and making billions.  Like Heated seats

I read about that last fall when the first batch of 2019 Toyotas with "rented features" started having their three year "free trials" of features such as heated seats and remote starters expire. There was a gigantic uproar about it, and I think they might have actually caved and released the "rented" features permanently to the owners.

Everyone seems to agree, it's one thing to charge ongoing fees for something that requires ongoing costs to provide (like satellite radio) but when the one-time manufacturing cost has already been absorbed, it is usurious to make the customer pay for it forever. This also triggered all of the usual discussions about right-to-repair, DRM-constrained hardware, etc. etc.

By the way, there are no "leases" on passenger vehicles anymore. They still call it a lease, but if you read through the agreement you will see that it's actually a standard auto loan that has a monthly payment similar to a lease, and with a guaranteed buy-back at the end making it behave like a lease. The reason for this is that some number of years ago, people involved in accidents started suing "the owner of the vehicle" which for a traditional lease would be the leasing company. It's the same reason you can't honestly say "haha, the bank owns more of my house than I do" because they don't; they only have the ability to take it away from you if you don't make the payments, but lienholders cannot be named in a lawsuit.

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 07:45:45 EST from Nurb432

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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Integrated internet access for licensing verification will make that really tough. And DMCA attacks if you try to produce a product that can reprogram them to disable it ( people do tend to lose those suits when they happen, just look at the attacks on 'game cheats', not promising ). Besides, true hacking an ECM ( which is what woudl be needed once they lock them down to this point ) is not trivial. Reprogramming the tables on our Fiero, with its limited sensors and control was a bitch. In a modern car.. yikes. 

 

Sat Mar 05 2022 01:45:54 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions Subject: Re: Renting Features

They did cave. 

Listen - it is all in the ECU - and the ECU can be hacked - and... if they throw down this line - not only will it be hacked... 

But consumers who don't know how to hack or are afraid to hack will simply buy from someone else. 

It is a lose/lose for the auto manufacturers. They realized this right away. 

 

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 12:54:34 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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Replacing the whole damn module sounds doable, until you get to the point where the same module that prevents remote start and heated seats from working unless you pay them in perpetuity is also the module that tunes the engine's operation and you can't pass an emissions inspection without it.

Someone will then develop a shim harness that "corrects" the problems, lots of people will play around with it, most people won't bother, and the cat and mouse game proceeds as usual until some auto manufacturer sees a market opportunity to dispense with the bullshit, everyone flocks to that vendor, and things proceed as usual.

[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 16:05:50 EST from Nurb432

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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Reminds me of one car i had, if you removed the radio, the car would no longer start.  ( was looking at replacing it with something that had native Bluetooth, found that the adapter kit was like 300 bucks or your car would not start.   I passed and stuck with a plugin BT to FM transmitter. screw that )

So if you got broken into while you are out somewhere, not only is your stereo gone, but you cant even drive home. 



[#] Wed Mar 09 2022 01:33:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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It'll probably be used to the Communist States to take cars off the road - but in places like Arizona, you still see 15 year old kids riding on the greenbelts on "mopeds" that are bicycles with a 2 stroke lawn-mower engine attached to them. 

I was talking about this to my wife a couple of days ago... My BMW came from a dealer with an aftermarket exhaust and intake on it, at the very least. It may be BootMod stage 2 programmed... and it passes smog... 

Because Arizona seems to be just going through the routine to get whatever federal clean-air-act funds you get for doing smog testing. I don't think we ACTUALLY GAF. 

So here - yeah... Here - we ALREADY can flash our ECUs and disable/enable factory features... For example, my car came with tires that include a locking limiter at 133 MPH, despite that you can put the other tires on it and that made it lock at 155mph... BMW won't change that - claims they "can't" once the code has locked into the ECU... 

But it is a simple thing to do with an aftermarket ECU tune. A Bimmer dealer can refuse to work on it, or flash it back... or you can just flash it back before you take it in for service. In any case - it is TRIVIAL to get by these things in States that allow people the freedom to own the things they buy. These flashes are illegal for street cars in California. Not here. Or, if they are, they're technically illegal, but *never* enforced. 

You don't need to disable the module. You just hack the ECU and give yourself the keys to the kingdom. BMW tried flash upgrades that broke ECU programming - and the ECU tuners just figured out new hacks. Eventually BMW gives up. It isn't worth fighting on cars that are 5, 6 years old or older. Too much R&D for too little return on investment. They might fight harder on new cars for the first 4 years of ownership - for as long as the factory warranty and service periods exist - but outside of that, if you're not going to buy a new one every 4 or 5 years, they can't AFFORD to care. 






Sat Mar 05 2022 12:54:34 EST from IGnatius T Foobar Subject: Re: Renting Features
Replacing the whole damn module sounds doable, until you get to the point where the same module that prevents remote start and heated seats from working unless you pay them in perpetuity is also the module that tunes the engine's operation and you can't pass an emissions inspection without it.

Someone will then develop a shim harness that "corrects" the problems, lots of people will play around with it, most people won't bother, and the cat and mouse game proceeds as usual until some auto manufacturer sees a market opportunity to dispense with the bullshit, everyone flocks to that vendor, and things proceed as usual.

 



[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 16:18:52 EST from Nurb432

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At the rate energy prices are rising, ( by intent of course ) its going to be academic soon.  We will all be riding the bus soon. and living in urban facilities, waiting for Carousel. 



[#] Sun Mar 13 2022 13:09:53 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Speak for yourself. I'm in the ass-end of that demographic for whom, "nothing will change". 

Other than there will be a lot less of YOU folks annoying me on the highway. 

Every now and then, I realize I should just give in and submit and go with the program. I'm pretty sure it ends up pretty much all upside for me *personally*, as long as I bend the knee and behave and acknowledge how great it is to be part of the country club. 

 

Fri Mar 11 2022 16:18:52 EST from Nurb432

At the rate energy prices are rising, ( by intent of course ) its going to be academic soon.  We will all be riding the bus soon. and living in urban facilities, waiting for Carousel. 



 



[#] Mon Mar 14 2022 07:03:15 EDT from Nurb432

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You keep on thinking that. Unless you are secretly one of them and just pretending to hate them that is. They are coming for everyone and never forget that. ( of course what they dont realize is most of them are on the list too.. just towards the end of it )

And yes while at some point it will effect me to the point of noticing, i am not poor, so while it will piss me off every time i can afford the rise planned for foreseeable future. ( and dont forget it effects every aspect of your life, not just "at the pump" but the core economy ) But, at some point it effects everyone ( especially with the coming shortages as you wont be allowed to buy unless its allocated to you by 'them' ). Just a matter of when not if. as it will get to all of us serfs, that is the plan.

 


Sun Mar 13 2022 01:09:53 PM EDTfrom ParanoidDelusions

Speak for yourself. I'm in the ass-end of that demographic for whom, "nothing will change". 

 


[#] Sun Mar 20 2022 03:25:51 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I'm pretty well off - not secretly either. 



You can be part of the club and still hate the rest of the members, though. At some point though, you start to have contempt for the people who should be able to see what is being done to them but instead smile and actively seek more of the same. 


If I was *absolutely* certain I was on the right side of the cut - and that almost happened last year - I'd sell all the rest of you out in a second. 

I've been saying for a while - gas shortages, healthcare and durable medical goods shortages, whatever the shortages are... won't really affect me. I put together a $4000 driving simulator this Christmas - and had long discussions with a CIO who ended up a multimillionaire when his company IPO hit about the best way for him to get his son an i9 with GTX3080 card during this time when "no one" can acquire these cards. That guy has a $100k Land Rover at his home in Austin, and likes it so much he bought another one to keep in L.A. for his current gig there. 

The fact that I tell people with less resources what it will be like for them, and then they go ahead and sign up for it, and it is exactly what I told them... boggles my mind. I'll still eat out 4 or 5 times a week... I'll buy a $15 Big Mac and a $5 fries... I mean... my wife, daughter and I... we've NOTICED that a fast food dinner for the 3 of us, and we don't do, you know, value menu items... can run $40. For 3 people. But that doesn't STOP us.  I knew that was going to happen when we started insisting that we pay burger flippers $15/hr "living wages". They'll still be poor, at the bottom of the food chain, but now for a lot of people going out to the Golden Arches is a FANCY dinner out. 

Which is maybe the plan. This is how the Great Reset will work. You'll just get used to being priced out of participating in things you've always taken for granted and if you complain, the boot will REALLY come down on you. 

I loved Covid. Less people at any of the places I needed or wanted to be. Eating out, travel, vacations, sporting events.  

I'd just point out, Russel Brand seems to be of the same mind as I am. He sees what is happening, and he'll reiterate - "this is not going to affect me, at least, not the manner in which I live..." 





Mon Mar 14 2022 07:03:15 EDT from Nurb432

You keep on thinking that. Unless you are secretly one of them and just pretending to hate them that is. They are coming for everyone and never forget that. ( of course what they dont realize is most of them are on the list too.. just towards the end of it )

And yes while at some point it will effect me to the point of noticing, i am not poor, so while it will piss me off every time i can afford the rise planned for foreseeable future. ( and dont forget it effects every aspect of your life, not just "at the pump" but the core economy ) But, at some point it effects everyone ( especially with the coming shortages as you wont be allowed to buy unless its allocated to you by 'them' ). Just a matter of when not if. as it will get to all of us serfs, that is the plan.

 


Sun Mar 13 2022 01:09:53 PM EDTfrom ParanoidDelusions

Speak for yourself. I'm in the ass-end of that demographic for whom, "nothing will change". 

 


 



[#] Sun Mar 20 2022 03:26:30 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Russel Brand loves you and still has faith in you, though. He cares what happens to you. 

 



[#] Sun Mar 20 2022 07:31:35 EDT from Nurb432

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I agree with the first part, other than there was no place to go around here or things to buy ( we had massive shortages and a lot of temporary closures here ). I also prefer to stay home anyway. But when i did go out, it was nice to not have to deal with the crowds, both on the roads or the stores.   It felt more like the 80s here when it was still a nice area to live. ( as in there was far a smaller volume of people and overall noise. The landscape, of course not as it was a lot less concrete back then. A lot. Seeing all the buildings and expanded roads and lost farms was a reminder that, no, this wasn't 1987.. )

2nd part, i agree with this only for the short term. Some will just be annoyed a little, and pretend its not happening since they can just adsorb it as a % off the top.. Another class below that, like me, will start acting differently even tho i dont *have* to ( but i will. 2x increase in the cost of something will make me reconsider it ) Lower middle class and poor, it will devastate.  But, i still think we are just in the first stage and its going to completely collapse at some point 'soon' and effect everyone along the food chain. Even those that think they are immune as they 'run' the show, but due to their greed and thirst for power they are going to push it too far and everything will collapse, including governmental/societal structure and thus being kicked off the gravy train. We have seen this time and time again thru recorded history, and as we know history repeats as we are morons as a species. 

Will it happen tomorow? No, well not unless we have an massive unexpected event like global nuclear war, a real pandemic that kills 2/3 of us, or even a massive asteroid that destroys our weather for a few decades and we starve ( which i dont honestly expect, but you never know for sure ). Will it collapse by 30 years due to the momentum? i think yes. I think the train has left the station and cant be stopped at this point. Perhaps slowed with the right people driving the ship, but not stopped.  

I may not be around that long to see it happen, but only time will tell if i'm right and the entire ship goes underwater or if it only floods the lower decks.  ( of course even then, the captain will feel effects from a ship 2/3 full of water. Aside from impacting their lives. that is how revolutions start and captains get to swing from a tree ). 

Sun Mar 20 2022 03:25:51 AM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

I loved Covid. Less people at any of the places I needed or wanted to be. Eating out, travel, vacations, sporting events.  

I'd just point out, Russel Brand seems to be of the same mind as I am. He sees what is happening, and he'll reiterate - "this is not going to affect me, at least, not the manner in which I live..." 




[#] Mon Mar 21 2022 17:50:52 EDT from LoanShark

Subject: Re: Renting Features

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

By the way, there are no "leases" on passenger vehicles anymore. They

still call it a lease, but if you read through the agreement you will

see that it's actually a standard auto loan that has a monthly payment

similar to a lease, and with a guaranteed buy-back at the end making it

behave like a lease. The reason for this is that some number of years


That's a repo agreement! So how much longer before we're all leasing our cars directly from the Federal Reserve?

[#] Mon Mar 21 2022 17:57:26 EDT from LoanShark

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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2022-03-03 15:23 from IGnatius T Foobar
Subject: Re: Renting Features
Just read a blurb today about automakers expanding the use of
'monthly fees' for features and making billions. Like Heated seats



I read about that last fall when the first batch of 2019 Toyotas with

"rented features" started having their three year "free trials" of
features such as heated seats and remote starters expire. There was a

gigantic uproar about it, and I think they might have actually caved
and released the "rented" features permanently to the owners.

BMW did the same damn thing, required a yearly subscription fee just to use CarPlay, which is firmware feature of the head unit that doesn't cost them a damn thing to leave enabled.

They backtracked after all the backLASH.

[#] Mon Mar 21 2022 18:16:53 EDT from LoanShark

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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I was talking about this to my wife a couple of days ago... My BMW
came from a dealer with an aftermarket exhaust and intake on it, at
the very least. It may be BootMod stage 2 programmed... and it passes

smog... 

If the government won't screw you over Bootmod2 (and there are some tuning devices that are 50-state legal, including CA), the insurance company will.


Technically speaking, any vehicle mod that alters performance characteristics must be reported to the geico gecko or you're committing insurance fraud.


But I digress. I'm inching closer to doing a track day in the 330i, and I sent an inquiry to Monticello Motor Club for 1 day of private instruction....l. Haven't heard back from them yet, but it's still the shoulder season. Too cold here, at night at least, to put summer tires on.

And I will probably put summer tires on. For my first time ever. On the stock 17"ers, heh. Try not to laugh.

choices narrowed down to --

Continental ExtremeContact Sport, $160 at Walmart
Michelin PS4S, $180 at Walmart (if they're still available. availability has been spotty lately.)
Bridgestone Potenza Sport, $197 or so at Mavis.

I have no idea about any of these, really, but I've seen multiple reviews of the Potenza that hint that it may be a little more track-focused than the other two:

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article/2022-Sport-Auto-UHP-Summer-Tire-Test.htm


Comments here include "Precise and uncompromisingly sporty--only safe to drive when the tires are warm."

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article/2021-Tire-Reviews-UHP-Summer-Tire-Test.htm


Similar comment here which I've heard echoed elsewhere: "Second place was taken by the new Bridgestone Potenza Sport, the fastest of the UUHP tires and almost the fastest of all the tires. The compound on this tire feels a bit like a track day tire, it needed a few laps to get some heat into it, and it struggled with aquaplaning more than any other tire, but when it was in contact with the surface it had excellent levels of grip.


Hmmmm.


[#] Mon Mar 21 2022 19:10:26 EDT from Nurb432

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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Speaking of. I need to get some rear tires for the little car this spring.  If gas prices dont come down soon, going to have to start driving it again. 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 17:51:52 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Subject: Re: Renting Features

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So... the thing is, BM3 you can flash back to factory in just a few minutes, as long as you can get the car to power up - it would be pretty trivial in even a fairly major accident to just flash back to factory while waiting for the tow truck. 

Is this a federal law, or a State law, on ECU mods and insurance fraud? I'm surprised I've never heard any mention of this in the communities I frequent. I mean, when you get a diesel and find out about DEF - it doesn't take long for you to be made aware that trying to bypass the DEF system is a federal crime. I didn't even really have to dig very far into understanding DEF before that was made abundantly clear to me. 

Now... I couldn't do that if my car is in fact stage 2 tuned... but I received it, from a dealer - and made no modifications to it. It was sold by a licensed, LARGE dealer as road ready and legal. It is serviced by an authorized BMW dealer who has never mentioned the aftermarket exhaust or intake. If it is ECU modded, I have no way of removing the mod programming. It came to me that way from the dealer.  

So, I'm pretty sure if the Lizard tried to go after me for insurance fraud - there would be deeper pockets for ME to go after depending on the fallout from that. 


On tires. 

The PS4s are really the dominant choice at the moment for tires - they're on everything that has any credibility - I have 4 of them on the 235i, and 2 of them on the M4 (the rears), with the original Star rated Michelin Pilot Super Sports on front. 

So, I've talked to other M owners who prefer the consumer grade PS4s to the factory * labeled Super Sports - because they're a better all weather tire. A little less grippy in the dry, but WAY better performance in the rain. 

The mix of Super Sports up front and PS4s in the rear makes the rear a little twitchy and introduces some tramlining in the M4, in my experience. 

But - I found out ALL about tires. The "*" Super Sports are an actual *unique* BMW factory formula. They're different than the Super Sports you can buy from any tire dealer. Different composition layers, different tread patterns, and designed to maximize the dry weather handling on the M models they're standard equipment on. Mercedes, Porsche and other high end vehicles, probably the Camaro ZL1 and Vette- come with Star Michelins as factory equipment - and they're all custom formulas for each different marquee - literally "factory" tires that you can only buy directly from the dealer. In my case, getting me a set of two rear Star BMW Michelin tires was 16 weeks out. So, consumer grade PS4s on the rear it was. 

I've heard LOTS of complaints from people who have tried the Continentals. I haven't heard anything about Potenza, really - and I get mixed reviews about Pirelli. 

With all that said - if it were my M4 and I had the leisure to wait - I'd go with the * factory Super Sports all around - but otherwise, the PS4s have proven to be a very good tire on my M235i. 




Mon Mar 21 2022 18:16:53 EDT from LoanShark Subject: Re: Renting Features
I was talking about this to my wife a couple of days ago... My BMW
came from a dealer with an aftermarket exhaust and intake on it, at
the very least. It may be BootMod stage 2 programmed... and it passes

smog... 

If the government won't screw you over Bootmod2 (and there are some tuning devices that are 50-state legal, including CA), the insurance company will.


Technically speaking, any vehicle mod that alters performance characteristics must be reported to the geico gecko or you're committing insurance fraud.


But I digress. I'm inching closer to doing a track day in the 330i, and I sent an inquiry to Monticello Motor Club for 1 day of private instruction....l. Haven't heard back from them yet, but it's still the shoulder season. Too cold here, at night at least, to put summer tires on.

And I will probably put summer tires on. For my first time ever. On the stock 17"ers, heh. Try not to laugh.

choices narrowed down to --

Continental ExtremeContact Sport, $160 at Walmart
Michelin PS4S, $180 at Walmart (if they're still available. availability has been spotty lately.)
Bridgestone Potenza Sport, $197 or so at Mavis.

I have no idea about any of these, really, but I've seen multiple reviews of the Potenza that hint that it may be a little more track-focused than the other two:

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article/2022-Sport-Auto-UHP-Summer-Tire-Test.htm


Comments here include "Precise and uncompromisingly sporty--only safe to drive when the tires are warm."

https://www.tire-reviews.com/Article/2021-Tire-Reviews-UHP-Summer-Tire-Test.htm


Similar comment here which I've heard echoed elsewhere: "Second place was taken by the new Bridgestone Potenza Sport, the fastest of the UUHP tires and almost the fastest of all the tires. The compound on this tire feels a bit like a track day tire, it needed a few laps to get some heat into it, and it struggled with aquaplaning more than any other tire, but when it was in contact with the surface it had excellent levels of grip.


Hmmmm.

 



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