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[#] Sat Nov 28 2020 19:02:01 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I'm certainly not worried about it tracking you. I had to keep explaining to my non-technical friends on the Right... 

"They've already got WAY better ways to do this, that you don't KNOW about. If they're telling you about it... they're not worried about you finding out..." 

 

Sat Nov 28 2020 16:33:42 EST from zooer

Loanshark, You have had Coronavirus, have you installed the NY state COVID-19 app on your phone?  
https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-alert-ny

Did anyone else install a similar app?

I think the app is a fine idea in theory, but not in practice. My biggest issue with the app is the people that would install the app are washing their hands, wearing masks and practicing social distancing. The people that would install the app are the people you need to worry less about.  

 

 



 



[#] Tue Dec 01 2020 09:49:09 EST from LoanShark

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Loanshark, You have had Coronavirus, have you installed the NY state
COVID-19 app on your phone?  

Yeah, I have the app.

I'm not too worried about the privacy implications; it doesn't use GPS, just Bluetooth proximity.

[#] Tue Dec 01 2020 09:50:08 EST from LoanShark

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(If it did use GPS, you would know about it because your phone would start overheating, which is what mine does every time an app is using Location in realtime.)

[#] Tue Dec 01 2020 10:24:04 EST from LoanShark

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hospitalization rates going *down*--because hospitals are filling up.

thread: https://twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1333636841271078912

[#] Tue Dec 01 2020 13:03:53 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Tue Dec 01 2020 10:24:04 EST from LoanShark

hospitalization rates going *down*--because hospitals are filling up.

thread: https://twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1333636841271078912

 

That may be part of it. Lots of actually peer reviewed research indicates that infections are less severe, with lower viral load and less complications. 

The reason is still out - but *my* theory is that the virus is weakening in the same pattern as the previous Corona Virus pandemic weakened and that most of the people who had severe complications because of comorbidities were among the first wave of fatalities - exposed before they realized they needed to self-isolate and social distance. There will certainly still be cases with severe complications - but again - most theories are just *conjecture* at this point - no one seems to know for certain how this is going to progress. 

The catch-22 about this is if we over-react and shut down the economy and the 2nd wave is less fatal for the reasons I suggest - those who are proponents of shutting down will be able to claim, "it is because we shut down!" 

And there is no real way to test. 

 



[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 14:01:02 EST from zooer

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Presidents Obama, Clinton and Bush are going to get the vaccine to prove the vaccine is safe.

First, why is it going to be given to the ruling elite first?  

Second, what would that prove to the truly paranoid?  A truly paranoid person would say the three just received a saline solution and not the dangerous chemicals the rest of the world will get. 

 

This is not meant to be political, just a casual observation. 



[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 15:09:24 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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They're not doing it for the paranoid. They're doing it for political theater - to "model that good leadership leads by example." 

The American people are asleep. Convinced they probably won the election - why would Bush, Clinton and Obama publicize a joint vaccination? Trump shook the foundations of their political establishment in a way that they found unacceptable - and it is more signaling "Trump was only in it for himself, but the REAL Republicans and Democrats are in it for you, the public..." 

They're afraid of what happens in 4 years, even if they win this 4 years. The Clinton Democrats and the Bush Republicans both. 






Thu Dec 03 2020 14:01:02 EST from zooer

Presidents Obama, Clinton and Bush are going to get the vaccine to prove the vaccine is safe.

First, why is it going to be given to the ruling elite first?  

Second, what would that prove to the truly paranoid?  A truly paranoid person would say the three just received a saline solution and not the dangerous chemicals the rest of the world will get. 

 

This is not meant to be political, just a casual observation. 



 



[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 15:23:55 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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I am beginning to wonder whether the entire culture of making fun of anti-vaxxers has been manufactured, because they wknew this was coming and they wanted to make sure that any resistance to the Bill Gates Death Needle would be ridiculed.

[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 15:50:47 EST from zooer

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Well I guess this needs to be moved to Political Paranoia.



[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 18:21:59 EST from LoanShark

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It does need to be moved...

An observation: the whole world is going insane. Some folks might be excessively fearful of the virus. Others are most definitely irrationally fearful of the vaccine.

In the worlds of @BallouxFrancois, if one group favors maximum lockdown and another group just wants to get on with their lives and take whatever slightly elevated risk that entails, those two groups are not going to agree.

n.b. For some groups, the risk is not "slightly elevated"; my dad's risk of death is probably 10-20% or more. If you wouldn't play Russian Roulette willingly, you wouldn't take that risk.

To put it another way, if one group, standing on rigid ideological grounds, insists on "no lockdown restrictions whatsoever", most other groups are not going to agree. If that group then doubles down "not even mask restrictios BECAUSE GIVE ME LIBERTY AND DEATH!!!!1", most other groups are going go doubt their basic sanity.

[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 18:22:24 EST from LoanShark

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*in the words of

[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 18:28:41 EST from LoanShark

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This article delves into the legal issues surrounding whether employers can make a vaccine mandatory:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/road-to-recovery/2020/12/02/workplace-mandated-coronavirus-vaccine/

A few quotes,

"Christine Nazer, an EEOC spokeswoman, said in a statement the EEOC bis actively evaluating how a potential vaccine would interact with employersb obligations under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the other laws the Commission enforces.b An email to the CDC was not immediately returned.

"bThere are so many unknowns, so many unanswered questions,b said Sharon Perley Masling, a partner at Morgan Lewis, who said most of her clients are considering just encouraging the vaccine until there is government guidance. bWebre operating from a bit of a blank slate right now.b"

And one of the conclusions:

"Once a coronavirus vaccine receives formal government approval, employment lawyers say itbs more likely to be treated like the flu shot, which can be mandated, even if itbs currently rare outside the health care field.

[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 18:30:14 EST from LoanShark

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"But that comes with several important caveats. Employers must abide by any state or local laws, as well as provide breasonable accommodationsb to people with qualified disabilities and to those who have religious objections, as required by the ADA and Title VII, respectively. Under the ADA, a vaccination is considered a medical examination that must be bjob-related and consistent with business necessity or itbs necessitated by a direct threat,b said Karla Grossenbacher, a labor and employment lawyer with Seyfarth Shaw. Collective bargaining agreements with unionized workforces should also be consulted, employment lawyers said.

[#] Thu Dec 03 2020 19:19:50 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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To put it another way, if one group, standing on rigid ideological
grounds, insists on "no lockdown restrictions whatsoever", most other


Like anything else, most reasonable people are not that extreme in either direction. The vast majority of people are ok with wearing a mask and washing their hands. Many are accepting of reasonable amounts of lockdown.

On the other hand, it's difficult to call fear of a minimally tested vaccine "irrational". Yes, go ahead and make it available to those who are high risk and/or fear the virus more than the vaccine. I do not fear the vaccine if I can elect not to take it. I do fear the possibility that they will make it mandatory. It would be disingenuous to equate skepticism of the safety of a minimally tested vaccine with the behavior of conspiracy theorist fringe groups.

[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 09:39:04 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Thu Dec 03 2020 18:21:59 EST from LoanShark

It does need to be moved...

An observation: the whole world is going insane. Some folks might be excessively fearful of the virus. Others are most definitely irrationally fearful of the vaccine.

In the worlds of @BallouxFrancois, if one group favors maximum lockdown and another group just wants to get on with their lives and take whatever slightly elevated risk that entails, those two groups are not going to agree.

n.b. For some groups, the risk is not "slightly elevated"; my dad's risk of death is probably 10-20% or more. If you wouldn't play Russian Roulette willingly, you wouldn't take that risk.

To put it another way, if one group, standing on rigid ideological grounds, insists on "no lockdown restrictions whatsoever", most other groups are not going to agree. If that group then doubles down "not even mask restrictios BECAUSE GIVE ME LIBERTY AND DEATH!!!!1", most other groups are going go doubt their basic sanity.

This is the problem with keeping posts "on topic" on Citadel BBSes, and always has been. This doesn't need to be moved - it is on topic - the topic just fits either room as good as the other. Topics have bleed. 


I do agree that the world has gone insane. This has for some time resembled a mass-hysteria - except instead of witches we're seeing Nazis or Communists. 

I also noticed recently that most of the old classic rockers are really keeping out of politics completely right now. It was Sammy Hagar speaking up about Eddie Van Halen passing that made me notice this. These guys are in their 60s and 70s, and they've got other things on their mind than if the world is sliding into authoritarianism or fascism. They've lived the MAJORITY of their lives at *peak* entitlement - and I mean that in a positive way. They were rewarded by the meritocracy of capitalism their entire lives - and if you took it all away from them tomorrow - it wouldn't actually matter that much to them. They lived the huge majority of their lives enjoying everything that the capitalist system can offer. *Everything*. 

So, they're more concerned about more immediate things. 

This relates directly to observations about how children and grandchildren feel about their at-risk parents. My daughter is very young, and very bought-into the fear cycle that is being fed to society. She isn't completely hysterical or unreasoning, but she is bordering on it. She also lived the last semester of her life in Chicago - and it is interesting to see and hear the difference in experience between those living in Liberal regime regions and those living in free States. 

When she returned home to Arizona - she didn't want to go out. She was afraid to sit at an In-N-Out outside, after the table had been wiped down by an associate, and wiped down again by me, with light patrons sitting socially distanced. She wanted to wear a mask, even walking or sitting outside. She also doesn't want to go back to Chicago. "It was depressing there this semester," but she doesn't really see the connection. 

But she was also very nervous about Thanksgiving. She was mostly concerned about her Grandfather and Grandmother. 

We had to reason with her that they have a different set of priorities - and in their 70s, they realize that if they've got 20 more Thanksgivings left, that is a generous number - and that in any case, those won't all be able to be spent with family they love, nor will they all be able to be enjoyed. So - despite the risk of death from infection being higher for them - the metrics of reward for playing Russian Roulette are different for them than for my daughter. 

As a free man with nothing to lose and nothing to gain by engaging in a game of Russian Roulette, it would be hard pressed to get anyone to play. But if you had less to lose and more to gain, those odds might start to seem a little more attractive, depending on the rewards. 

As a society - a HUGE part of the problem is that we seem to only be able to see experience through our own box - and then we demand that everybody else live their lives as seen through our experience. 


 "To put it another way, if one group, standing on rigid ideological grounds, insists on "no lockdown restrictions whatsoever", most other groups are not going to agree. If that group then doubles down "not even mask restrictios BECAUSE GIVE ME LIBERTY AND DEATH!!!!1", most other groups are going go doubt their basic sanity. "

This strikes me as the hyperbole and rhetoric of a group that insists, "National mask mandates are the ONLY solution!" and "Shut down EVERYTHING UNTIL EVERY LAST PERSON IS SAFE!" The people who attack and berate shoppers in NYC because they don't have a mask, calling them, "Dirty whores," instead of just keeping 6 feet away from them. If one group acts this unreasonably dogmatic about their proposed solutions, I think that most of the rational people in the middle are more likely to be sympathetic to the group that is the polar opposite. There is so much evidence that social isolation does harm, and not a lot of evidence that it helps. 

One thing is certain - the OUTLOOK in the free States of America is far different than in the Leftist occupied ones, and the overall mental health is, too - from what I've seen and heard of residents living in both. 


 



[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 10:58:06 EST from LoanShark

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On the other hand, it's difficult to call fear of a minimally tested

vaccine "irrational". Yes, go ahead and make it available to those who

are high risk and/or fear the virus more than the vaccine. I do not

fear the vaccine if I can elect not to take it. I do fear the
possibility that they will make it mandatory. It would be disingenuous

to equate skepticism of the safety of a minimally tested vaccine with

the behavior of conspiracy theorist fringe groups.

It depends on the basis of that concern.

"This vaccine has not been tested yet" is a valid concern.

"This vaccine has RNA in it" is not a valid concern, in and of itself. We've been doing various kinds of viral vector vaccines for a hundred years or more. The entire discussion has to be balanced against the risks of the live virus, which *also* has RNA in it, in a far more malicious form.


"This RNA could somehow magically rewrite your genome by accident", I'm sorry to say, flies in the face of medical knowledge--but even if it were a valid concern, you would have to have the same concern about the live virus...

[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 12:32:08 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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This is the problem with keeping posts "on topic" on Citadel BBSes,
and always has been. This doesn't need to be moved - it is on topic -

It's also a Citadel tradition to keep message quoting to an absolute minimum.
Just sayin'...

[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 12:35:24 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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"This RNA could somehow magically rewrite your genome by accident",

Right ... that's the extreme end, and it's rather silly ... if we had the ability to rewrite genomes we'd already be using it to cure birth defects.


[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 13:13:44 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Am I doin' this right? :D 

 

Fri Dec 04 2020 12:32:08 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
ayin'... 

 



[#] Fri Dec 04 2020 13:25:23 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I thought we had already established all this a week or two back. Even if that is true, it doesn't change the base claim that the vaccine has been rushed and there should be concerns about it. 

Fri Dec 04 2020 12:35:24 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
if we had the ability to rewrite genomes we'd already be using it to cure birth defects. 

 



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