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[#] Wed May 25 2016 13:09:46 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I think you're delusional, but ok.

[#] Wed May 25 2016 14:56:31 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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2016-05-25 13:09 from IGnatius T Foobar @uncnsrd
I think you're delusional, but ok.



What else is new?

[#] Wed May 25 2016 19:01:31 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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So there is statistically no client-side Linux, as long as you remove

from consideration the variant that has billions of clients installed?


Hey, Linux kernel running instances now way outnumber Windows kernel running instances. VICTORY!

[#] Wed May 25 2016 21:25:36 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Well yes, that's kind of the point.  :)   A lot of people said that Microsoft's desktop monopoly would ultimately have the same fate as IBM's mainframe monopoly: they still have it, but that part of the market ceases to be the central piece that sets the pace for everything else.  I would like to have seen desktop Linux succeed, but at this point it isn't likely to go big for the same reason Windows Phone won't: there just isn't room for a third entry.

It'll stick around, though, because its community is self-supporting, and most of the tools are useful in all of the places where Linux *is* huge.

And those of us who know that the inside of a data center doesn't look like the inside of a Starbucks will continue to find Linux vastly superior to anything Apple has ever produced.  As we used to say in the 1980's: my computer is better than yours.



[#] Thu May 26 2016 04:29:02 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

Subject: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

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Part of the Windows Desktop success story is warez, in my opinion. Warez and backwards compatibility. My guess is, they have been tolerating warez from win95 till Vista times on purpose, so nobody had an economical need to use a legally free but minority OS, when they could use the majority OS illegally for free without a hassle.

My clients are all small business, running from 5 to 30 workstations and some server. Most of them use a linux server, because admins like me supplied them with one when they started their business. One client runs a SBS 2011, only because of Exchange, but they did not buy additional CAL.

Some of my clients were forced to buy new legal versions of their main software (CAD) after the switch from 32bit XP to 64bit Win7. There are often ways to port their legacy softwares to 64bit Win7 versions, but we admins agreed to not tell them, because perpetuating crap is never a good idea. Some clients were still running Office XP in 2012.

New CAD software versions only come in a 64bit variety, which forced me to update the only remaining 32bit system in one office recently. My angsty predecessor didn't believe me that the laptop was 64bit capable when he set up win7 in 2012...

So, while it was all nice and easy to install even pre-win2k software up until recently, they broke lots of compatibility with Vista. The upgrade from Win8 to Win8.1 forced me to reinstall a lot of software, because various license managers refused to work after such a "minor" upgrade.

The next breaking point will be UHD for some apps, because they look shitty on 3k+ displays. Some clients might even be forced to give up running their Adobe Creative Suite Warez Editions CS2 or CS6 because of that.

Apple forced MS into the "free" upgrade to Win10 policy, I guess the future market is free OS upgrades and monthly/annual payment for Office and other tools. Adobe did it, from what I heard AutoDesk does it, too. OSX tends to break software compatibility ever few versions, too, so that is not an alternative.

Wether Desktop Linux has chance to fill a niche in this scenario remains doubtful, since the people that do not want to spent a dime on computers, like your mom, will rather use a tablet.

I guess one reason why Linux Desktops never commercially succeeded was, because the backwards compatibility for GUI stuff was always crap. The kernel devs will of course claim that they have a 1994 version of nethack running on their main dev machine that still works like a charm. And that sums up the problem pretty much.



[#] Thu May 26 2016 08:06:34 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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Generally Linux system GUI stuff is crap. The problem goes back to what it's always been. Productivity stuff isn't sexy, so the community doesn't really rally behind it.

As for IG's "Starbucks" comment - it's actually the opposite. What's happening is Starbucks, college dorms, and on the street *is* what drives the market.
Nobody cares about the back end, as long as it works. He's right about Apple not having made inroads into the server market. They gave up on it. Couldn't say why. They seemed to drop the efforts just as they were starting to get acceptance.

the_mgt is dead on about warez. Look at how Microsoft destroyed Wordperfect with Word. Wordperfect had some stupid license codes. Word had nothing.
People took their copies from work home and used it without issue. Wordperfect was destroyed pretty quickly.

The "monthly fee for everything" is going bite these companies eventually. While large companies like operating expenses vs. capital expenses, at the end of the day those are accounting games. For smaller organizations, cash is king. They like being able to postpone or delay payments. Do I want to pay $10 a month per user forever for Exchange?
Or install and upgrade when my finances allow? The only good part about SaaS is the hopeful reduction in support costs.....

[#] Thu May 26 2016 13:56:28 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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People took their copies from work home and used it without issue.
Wordperfect was destroyed pretty quickly.

Up until Office 2000 or so... as long as you had the volume license version which you could get with an MSDN subscription, there was no license management whatsoever; you didn't even have to enter a product key. Well that all changed...

[#] Thu May 26 2016 13:57:55 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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about SaaS is the hopeful reduction in support costs.....

"hopeful" indeed. That may well be a sham. If I'm not forced to upgrade anything before I want to, my support costs may well be less...

[#] Fri May 27 2016 11:29:49 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

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Since everything's done in a browser now (yes Netscape really did win the browser war) none of this really matters anymore.  Case in point: another area where Linux is kicking Apple's ass is with Chromebooks.  Chromebooks outsold Macs for the first time in Q1 2016.  Expect this trend to continue.

So yeah, client-side Linux is winning unless you artificially narrow your view to "x86 hardware with an X Window desktop."  That's like saying McDonald's is a failure because they don't sell as many fish sandwiches as Popeye's.



[#] Fri May 27 2016 11:39:49 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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Chromebooks are a joke and not really being used in the real world. Name the last time you saw ANYONE use one in the wild.

They're cheap shit you give to your kids so they don't break a real laptop.
Or schools buy them (thanks taxpayers) to give to students.

It's a fun geek toy for a few minutes. Then you start itching for a real computer.

[#] Fri May 27 2016 11:42:23 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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FYI - I'll be buying a Chromebook this summer.... My son is REQUIRED to have a Chromebook or tablet next year in school. I want the cheapest thing possible.
An 11 year old boy is going to break it.

[#] Fri May 27 2016 11:43:27 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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As one person put it "A $149 Chromebook is outselling a $1499 MacBook. Wow! What's next? Hyundai outselling BMW?"

[#] Fri May 27 2016 13:15:06 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

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So yeah, client-side Linux is /winning/ unless you artificially
narrow your view to "x86 hardware with an X Window desktop."  That's
like saying McDonald's is a failure because they don't sell as many
fish sandwiches as Popeye's.


I thought more about this. Linux (for most people) is an ecosystem, not just a kernel. Calling a Chromebook "linux" is just as silly as GNU/Linux.
At the end of the day, no one really give a damn about the kernel.

[#] Fri May 27 2016 16:05:01 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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Fri May 27 2016 11:39:49 AM EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored
Chromebooks are a joke 

What if you just want some piece of crap beater for use when traveling?



[#] Fri May 27 2016 17:24:28 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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I guess it depends on what you're doing. You can pick up a Lenovo Ideapad 100S for $160. And it will be far more capable than any Chromebook.

[#] Fri May 27 2016 19:11:02 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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That has almost the same crappy specs as my current low-end 11 year old laptop.  I don't think Chrome supports 32bit anymore.



[#] Fri May 27 2016 19:23:14 EDT from zooer @ Uncensored

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Fri May 27 2016 05:24:28 PM EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored
I guess it depends on what you're doing.

 

Mostly checking gmail, and surfing. It is just something to use when traveling.  I would like it to be able to run linux. 

 

 



[#] Sat May 28 2016 23:58:44 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Chromebooks are a joke and not really being used in the real world.

And any computer smaller than a mainframe is a joke and not really being used in the real world. IBM is still leading.

[#] Sun May 29 2016 17:29:36 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

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Fri May 27 2016 11:29:49 EDTfrom IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

Since everything's done in a browser now (yes Netscape really did win the browser war) none of this really matters anymore.  

I was talking business as in "an architecture bureau" or other people involved in constructing/planning buildings. I am not aware of any CAD software that runs in a browser and is professionally used. Even SketchUp, as much as it looks like a toy, is installed on real desktops. Engineers use even more programs, to calculate lights for a room, airflow for a storage or whatever. All of them could be browserbased, but what would be the business model of selling a website overhaul for several 1000€? No, the companies want to sell a "real" new version with proper install medium and a shiny new package. You wouldn't believe the fuss they make about packages.

Most letter-pushers or secretaries could use a browser based software, but I personally maintain only one place where a person uses Citrix to connect to another branch. I am not sure if developers (real ones, not web developers) would use a browser based IDE...

Case in point: another area where Linux is kicking Apple's ass is with Chromebooks.  Chromebooks outsold Macs for the first time in Q1 2016.  Expect this trend to continue.

I have yet to see any person putting a chromebook to proper use. I see lots of laptops from cheap to expensive, tablets of all varieties and really lots of Macs at the university. Maybe I didn't notice it.

So yeah, client-side Linux is winning unless you artificially narrow your view to "x86 hardware with an X Window desktop."  That's like saying McDonald's is a failure because they don't sell as many fish sandwiches as Popeye's.

Linux, at least to me, is more than a kernel buttraped by a java abomination. I do not count Windows Phone or Windows CE or any other thing as a "Windows system" either. Fuck, the useless piece of car "entertainment system" in our crappiest car runs a chinese warez version of CE. That is not a client-side windows I would count in any statitic. 



[#] Mon May 30 2016 10:53:54 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: tl;dr: Desktops are only important for businesses

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There are always exceptions. If I was putting together an audio production studio I'd buy a Mac -- a niche computer for a niche business, but that's where the software is. For engineering you'd go where the software is as well (there was a time when that meant a Sun machine, but now that's Windows too).

The point is, however, that every year, fewer and fewer programs require a full blown client side computing environment. This cannot be denied.

Let's be realistic: most of the Macs in your coffee shop spend 100% of their uptime viewing Facebook in a web browser.

When I was starting up my computer a few minutes ago, before I remembered this conversation, I was thinking "here we go again, just a browser and a terminal program -- I ought to finish installing Guacamole so I can move the terminal stuff into the browser too"

If a Chromebook isn't a real computer because it can't run AutoCAD, then a Windows machine isn't a real computer because it can't run CICS and TSO and JCL.

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