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[#] Tue Jul 06 2021 13:23:14 EDT from LoanShark

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My laptop also ate itself. It's been having trouble waking from sleep, and it dual boots Linux and 'doze, so it's hard to tell who's responsible (hardware, BIOS, Windows, or Linux) but this is the second time it's decided to eat its boot loader for breakfast. The last time this happened, I was able to launch Ubuntu install media and recreate the EFI partition and everything else was still there. But it's a fricking pain in the ass to do this for both Windows and Linux. You definitely need another computer kicking around, both to read docs and create media.

[#] Tue Jul 06 2021 16:45:22 EDT from Nurb432

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Not quite the same but my first back in office.  100% cpu. Petty much unusable 

Some crap about a secondary firewall and reading that Cisco umbrella can do it.  Tried to stop the firewall thing first, instant blue screen... so  I disabled umbrella ( who knows if it will stay disabled ) then print spooler @100%..   i dont ever print, so disabled that too. 

After that 15%..



[#] Wed Jul 07 2021 13:28:12 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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But... is it really? 

There is still a Linux foundation underneath it all - and Linux itself hasn't changed significantly at all in the last 30 years - and things can still break at that foundation layer that require advanced Linux skills in order to fix. 

The best Linux can do is to be just as bloated and insufferable as any other OS - eventually suffering slow-downs and clutter and strange failures that MOST users will resolve with a reinstall - app and system crashes that they'll resolve with a reboot. 

With the added bonus of "I want to do App X"

And being told, "Yeah - we don't have that on Linux - instead we have this ALTERNATIVE..." 

Your grandmother may just want to watch Cat videos - in which case, an iPad is actually the BEST bet for her. 

Linux really has no place on the desktop, except for with Grandmothers who like cat videos who have grandsons who are Linux evangelists. It is a VERY small niche. 


Your niece or sister or cousin wants OS X - because Linux isn't cool - and never will be. 


Your brother or uncle or nephew wants Windows - because *gaming* and cloud gaming is teh s8x0rZ - and Linux gaming performance isn't as ultimately optimized - and there are still titles that aren't working, and GPU drivers don't come out as fast. 

Geeks want Linux. Linux may have made small inroads - but it is still the outlier for corner cases who prefer to do things the hard way. You've got the STEM crowd and the maker crowd - and there has been a lot of PUSH to sell this as "the new cool..." 

But, it isn't. It is still as geeksville as ever. ;) 

 



 

 

Wed Jun 30 2021 16:26:06 EDT from Nurb432

It does not have to be complex. And for the average person it can be less complex than windows if done right.  

Sure 1995, you had to know what you are doing and people were not as technical.  In 2021, just follow the bouncing ball in a graphical installer no worse than you get with Microsoft, and poof you have something that lets you watch your cat videos.   

If my 80 year old mother can one day say, 'why do they changing things, is there something else i can use' and when i give her Debian the next weekend she had zero problems and was happier..  Didn't even have to tell her how to use it. I put in lxde, which was close enough to win7 for her to understand the menu and task bar. Dropped a couple important icons on the desktop. Done. happy camper again.

If she was going to be into installing apps on her own, then id have done ( gag ) Ubuntu + lxde. While im not a fan personally due to ethical and political reasons out side of this topic the reality is that the snap store is easy enough to use, no worse than other app stores ( apple, Microsoft ). But she had her browser and really all she needed. Everything she wanted was a favorite in her browser that she was already used to using ( chrome ), even stuff like Netflix or google docs. I still say most people, all they need is a browser. Not all, and their needs may be different but most. 

 

Hell, even gaming is moving to cloud.. OS wont matter there much longer either. 

Wed Jun 30 2021 03:55:15 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions


Linux is not a good user-space platform. It sucks at it. It is too complicated. 

 



 



[#] Wed Jul 07 2021 13:29:09 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Operator error. 

 

Mon Jul 05 2021 23:44:20 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

Grr.

Came back from vacation, connected my work laptop to the dock, intending to get it booted up, logged in, and ready for my first day back at work tomorrow.

About a dozen failed boots later, I'm now sitting through Windoze reinstalling itself.

Garbage of the worst kind. Complete shit from version 1 through version 11. Windoze will never not suck.

 



[#] Wed Jul 07 2021 13:53:05 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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There is still a Linux foundation underneath it all - and Linux
itself hasn't changed significantly at all in the last 30 years - and
things can still break at that foundation layer that require advanced
Linux skills in order to fix. 

I call bullshit.

Please describe the problems you had with Linux 30 years ago.

[#] Wed Jul 07 2021 20:24:05 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Are you claiming that the fundamental functions of Linux are different in any significant way than they were 30 years ago?

You've still got to navigate around through an obscure, arcane file system to find files and configure them with a primitive text editor like vi, just to get DNS to work right, just to configure your network correctly, just to set up dozens of things that any decent modern OS does automatically and reliably. 

The developers rip out and replace features at their whim. Gnome has flipped several times in the last few versions on if you can place icons on your desktop. What could is a desktop that you can't PUT things on? You might be able to kludge a solution - but your GRANDMOTHER isn't going to be doing that - and most typical users are going to be intimidated by the process. 

Linux is not ready for average desktop users. Period. Without a propeller-headed neck-bearded, pony-tailed Uber Nerd to set it all up so that the Linux need *never* be seen - the odds of a user installing it giving up and running back to OS X or Windows are *astronomical*. 

Most people who go Linux - go right back to whatever they were using before. 

And the desktop segment share consistently SHOWS this for the last 30 years. 

Recommending Linux to an average user is like a mechanic recommending a tuned custom kit car with entirely custom machines parts to someone looking for a daily driver. Are you going to be ready to be there every time they need a tune-up? 

The reason Android is so reliable is because it doesn't REALLY run on Linux. Linux is a super-substructure really running one thing, a virtual machine - and everything runs in THAT. *nix works for Apple because they maintain super-strict control of almost everything - the hardware, the OS kernel, the utilities, the software, the drivers - the whole shebang.

Hell, there are enterprise on-site IT solutions that are built on Linux that hide the LINUX from the in house staff - because Linux works best, even for a majority of IT professionals, when you HIDE the Linux foundation from them. 


The barrier to entry as a Linux admin is not nearly as high as it used to be - but it is still beyond the capabilities of a MAJORITY of the professionals in this industry to operate reliably. And I'd rather trust the security of a WELL ADMINISTERED Windows server than a poorly administered Linux server. 

Here is the dirty little secret of the IT industry. The majority of online security breaches that have happened, the worst ones - in the last 15 years - have almost entirely been on LINUX based servers - that were poorly administered. 

Your security is only as good as the talent of your staff - and a majority of "Linux admins" out there earned their wings at places like Hostgator. 






Wed Jul 07 2021 13:53:05 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
There is still a Linux foundation underneath it all - and Linux
itself hasn't changed significantly at all in the last 30 years - and
things can still break at that foundation layer that require advanced
Linux skills in order to fix. 

I call bullshit.

Please describe the problems you had with Linux 30 years ago.

 



[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 06:02:45 EDT from Nurb432

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Honestly, i have not had to do this for years as a 'end user'. Things 'just' work'. As in a graphical install that asks a few questions, you wait then poof its done. A graphical app installer ( which i dont use, but its there ).  All the stuff t he 'average person' does is all 'above ground' now to speak. Updates can  happen on their own too. 

Sure, when i want to do something special, its there and accessable. But any more, that is rare for me even. 

Wed Jul 07 2021 08:24:05 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Are you claiming that the fundamental functions of Linux are different in any significant way than they were 30 years ago?

You've still got to navigate around through an obscure, arcane file system to find files and configure them with a primitive text editor like vi, just to get DNS to work right, just to configure your network correctly, just to set up dozens of things that any decent modern OS does automatically and reliably. 



 



[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 06:27:56 EDT from Nurb432

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As far as file systems go, 'arcane'? Its not worse ( or better ) than what Microsoft has done. And its not all that much older, really since windows FS was built on top of DOS.. Sure, Linux is not 100% identical across 'distributions' ( a beef of mine ) but it is generally the same. Users stuff goes in to home, instead of users..  program files go in a couple places depending on their use.. Libraries go over here.. config files mostly go here..

For Microsoft: programs go iin program files, or was that program files x86? Or was it in windows\bla bla  See, they have the same problem really.  Just a matter of getting used to it. A lot of it is just learning where things are, how they work and you are good. Even moving from distributions, its an adjustment not a re-learn.    You cant pick up a windows box and suddenly know what you are doing. Had to learn it too at one point. 

Don't like cli to manage your system? Plenty of GUI management interfaces to prevent you from having to do it. Sure, they are not 'stock' but its trivial to add them. But if you want CLI its always there ( which ill give MS credit on that, since after decades of people asking they finally added that stuff )

System processes ( excluding systemD which was a huge change and another topic ) UNIX world basically did things the same for decades. Much like windows has.  Just incremental 'improvements'  So learn the core once, and keep up, then you are gold.

The only thing Microsoft has going for it is remote management ( GPO ), and you can do that too in the Linux world in several ways, just may not quite as transparent and takes more front end effort. But even that is improving as time goes on.

Mainframes? Same thing, they are just 'different' and need learned.

 

 

 

"Here is the dirty little secret of the IT industry. The majority of online security breaches that have happened, the worst ones - in the last 15 years - have almost entirely been on LINUX based servers - that were poorly administered. "

Not really a secret, people who do not take the time to learn their job cause problems.  Regardless of their job or indutry. Be it managing Linux, windows, routers, hell even door access systems or flying a plane. Its not the "system's" fault. Its the lack of experience, or lack of caring to do it correctly. Even when people ARE experienced, they cut corners. bad things happen.



[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 09:13:30 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Honestly, i have not had to do this for years as a 'end user'. Things
'just' work'. As in a graphical install that asks a few questions,

Right. Linux has become better than Mac in that it's easy when you want it to be, and complex when you need it to be.

Gone are the days when you had to hand-configure X11 to make it work with your video hardware. No one compiles their own kernels anymore. Editing configuration files, for a typical end user, is now a thing of the past. Most end users also don't have to compile programs from source to get what they want.

And that's why I call bullshit. Anyone who claims Linux is the same as it was in the past, is lying about having used Linux in the past.

[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 14:13:07 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I understand what you're saying - but c'mon...  it is far more difficult conceptually than Microsoft or Apple's file hierarchy. There always seems to be some reason or logic to the file folder directory names when you read up the history - but in practical application, it was often clever nerds being witty and unintentionally making things much more difficult than they needed to be. 

To be fair, I love Amiga-OS - but it suffers the same kind of bullshit. 

/opt /var /libs /devs /etc /usr /bin C: dev: DF0: .system /wbstartup /blah blah blah... 

Both are a confusing mess and things get dropped all over the place - they're very similar in this regard - and it is one of my least favorite things about BOTH OS platforms. And both Windows and OS X do a better job here, in general. 

This kind of statement is what I mean about how Linux is not ready for the user desktop: 

"Sure, they are not 'stock' but its trivial to add them."

Your typical user is not interested in a "trivial to add GUI management system." The people who get their rocks off on this kind of custom tuning of their PC - *already* have Linux installed - and the number of the total users interested in this kind of customized flexibility hasn't really shifted significantly as a total percentage of user PCs in the last 30 years. Linux, barring some major paradigm shift - has probably seen its more or less peak percentage of desktop users and will maintain pretty steady numbers. 

Frequently in my career I was asked by my peers questions amounting to, "Why do you move ahead and up in your career when I am way smarter than you at this stuff..." 

And I've always known - because I'm pretty damn good at it - but most people who are REALLY good at it are really BAD at understanding USERS expectations and desires. All the things that make you LOVE linux (and I understand what they are, and why they matter to you, and that you are actually RIGHT...) are the things that make regular users HATE Linux and often dislike Linux users. 


Thu Jul 08 2021 06:27:56 EDT from Nurb432

As far as file systems go, 'arcane'? Its not worse ( or better ) than what Microsoft has done. And its not all that much older, really since windows FS was built on top of DOS.. Sure, Linux is not 100% identical across 'distributions' ( a beef of mine ) but it is generally the same. Users stuff goes in to home, instead of users..  program files go in a couple places depending on their use.. Libraries go over here.. config files mostly go here..

For Microsoft: programs go iin program files, or was that program files x86? Or was it in windows\bla bla  See, they have the same problem really.  Just a matter of getting used to it. A lot of it is just learning where things are, how they work and you are good. Even moving from distributions, its an adjustment not a re-learn.    You cant pick up a windows box and suddenly know what you are doing. Had to learn it too at one point. 

Don't like cli to manage your system? Plenty of GUI management interfaces to prevent you from having to do it.  But if you want CLI its always there ( which ill give MS credit on that, since after decades of people asking they finally added that stuff )

System processes ( excluding systemD which was a huge change and another topic ) UNIX world basically did things the same for decades. Much like windows has.  Just incremental 'improvements'  So learn the core once, and keep up, then you are gold.

The only thing Microsoft has going for it is remote management ( GPO ), and you can do that too in the Linux world in several ways, just may not quite as transparent and takes more front end effort. But even that is improving as time goes on.

Mainframes? Same thing, they are just 'different' and need learned.

 

 

 

"Here is the dirty little secret of the IT industry. The majority of online security breaches that have happened, the worst ones - in the last 15 years - have almost entirely been on LINUX based servers - that were poorly administered. "

Not really a secret, people who do not take the time to learn their job cause problems.  Regardless of their job or indutry. Be it managing Linux, windows, routers, hell even door access systems or flying a plane. Its not the "system's" fault. Its the lack of experience, or lack of caring to do it correctly. Even when people ARE experienced, they cut corners. bad things happen.



 



[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 14:22:48 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Linux has wrappers that certainly make it easier for a novice to get up and running - but the minute you try to do anything that it didn't come out of the box with - you get back to that same old bullshit. 

Every improvement in the Linux user experience over the last 30 years has been Linux catching up with what OS X and Windows offered the average user experience in their *previous* version - more or less. Linux tends to catch up right about the time that OS X and Windows are showing their next big thing. It is a very reactive development model. The few times they've caught up (The Compiz Cube was a cool concept in Ubuntu)... Linux does a 180 degree turn and goes with something far less attractive and exciting to end users. Usually for... reasons. 

Generally with Windows or OS X - if you want to do something that isn't stock in the system, you download an installer or .dmg and either click Yes a bunch of times or drag and drop the app into the folder on your Mac. WHATEVER it is. 


Very frequently with Linux, you go in and you try to install something, and it says, "Oh, you need THIS version of THIS other app... but it isn't available - or has been replaced by THIS, and if you remove THIS for what you need things may break - and you'll need to edit /etc/initd/neckbeard.cfg to add a line and then..." 

Just look up what is involved to be able to drag app icons to your desktop on Gnome these days. Most average users won't put up with that shit. They'll give up. The Linux Guru's answer? "Don't put icons on your desktop - that is stupid and why it was taken away." That answer doesn't work for average users either. 

I call bullshit on your bullshit. You are blind to your blindspots in this matter because you're not impartial - you're a fanatic. 








Thu Jul 08 2021 09:13:30 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
Honestly, i have not had to do this for years as a 'end user'. Things
'just' work'. As in a graphical install that asks a few questions,

Right. Linux has become better than Mac in that it's easy when you want it to be, and complex when you need it to be.

Gone are the days when you had to hand-configure X11 to make it work with your video hardware. No one compiles their own kernels anymore. Editing configuration files, for a typical end user, is now a thing of the past. Most end users also don't have to compile programs from source to get what they want.

And that's why I call bullshit. Anyone who claims Linux is the same as it was in the past, is lying about having used Linux in the past.

 



[#] Thu Jul 08 2021 14:56:10 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I call bullshit on your bullshit on your bullshit. You're cherry picking on both sides. Hey, 1998 called and John Dvorak wants his talking points back.

[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 16:18:16 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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😂

Thu Jul 08 2021 14:56:10 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
I call bullshit on your bullshit on your bullshit. You're cherry picking on both sides. Hey, 1998 called and John Dvorak wants his talking points back.

 



[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 16:20:06 EDT from LoanShark

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This is the Microsoft Bashing room. Anything that isn't Gates-bashing should be moved to the Trashcan> :-)

[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 16:58:53 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I declare that bashing Bill Gates is acceptable here even if it has nothing to do with Microsoft.

Today's Microsoft could be considered "kinder and gentler" compared to the Gates/Ballmer Microsoft, but they still suck. I had to reboot today just because everything became sluggish. Application windows would take seconds to respond to mouse events. Nothing outrageous was running, it just decided it wanted to ruin my day.

I believe that Microsoft acquiring Canonical is inevitable. It's just a question of when. Windows Server can become a set of services that run on top of Linux, obviating the need to maintain a high-sucktitude OS underneath.
Just like Novell did. Desktop will take longer, of course.

Because cloud.

[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 17:07:33 EDT from LoanShark

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Just like Novell did. Desktop will take longer, of course.

remember how that worked out...

[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 17:28:25 EDT from Nurb432

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I really hope not, as if fear what may happen up stream to the real source..  Debian. 

Fri Jul 09 2021 04:58:53 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

I believe that Microsoft acquiring Canonical is inevitable. It's just a question of when.

 



[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 20:15:37 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I agree that Microsoft is "kinder and gentler" - Also probably a lot less confident, arrogant and annoying. I also agree that Microsoft still does completely disagreeable things - mostly with personal privacy and burying Opt-Out things that should actually be OPT-IN things. 

But with all that said - those things can be said about ALL the major players right now - and I think I probably trust APPLE the *most* in that regard. Apple really values being the Kings of their Kingdom - and their kingdom involves owning their user's data - jealously. They don't want to share it with anyone - *including* the Federal government. 

But I don't trust Apple either. And Linux has been infiltrated by the spooks and owls long ago - and was the *easiest* to infiltrate. The Free and Open Source development team model made that a piece of cake to do. The first time the FBI, CIA and NSA had a bust of a high profile hacker who was also a respected member of the Linux community - they had their foot in that door. 

You can't trust your computer - unless it is so old they don't *care* about it. 

I do suspect that most of your Windows issues are user induced. Not all of them. Windows - like any OS - can be an annoying and painful thing to deal with - but your generally high level of Linux technical expertise probably does you about as good in Windows as my high level of Windows expertise does me in Linux.  

Fri Jul 09 2021 16:58:53 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
I declare that bashing Bill Gates is acceptable here even if it has nothing to do with Microsoft.

Today's Microsoft could be considered "kinder and gentler" compared to the Gates/Ballmer Microsoft, but they still suck. I had to reboot today just because everything became sluggish. Application windows would take seconds to respond to mouse events. Nothing outrageous was running, it just decided it wanted to ruin my day.

I believe that Microsoft acquiring Canonical is inevitable. It's just a question of when. Windows Server can become a set of services that run on top of Linux, obviating the need to maintain a high-sucktitude OS underneath.
Just like Novell did. Desktop will take longer, of course.

Because cloud.

 



[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 20:20:13 EDT from Nurb432

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I also agree on #1, But not on #2.

And they are still scum of the earth, not to be trusted.  Less evil still is evil :) 

Fri Jul 09 2021 08:15:37 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

I agree that Microsoft is "kinder and gentler" - Also probably a lot less confident, arrogant and annoying. 



 



[#] Fri Jul 09 2021 20:36:53 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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This comes back to the Democrats vs. the Republicans argument. 

I am more concerned about the evil that is able to actuate their evil more effectively against me. The POTENTIAL evil that is impotent is just an annoyance. The evil that is realized is a *problem*. 

 

Fri Jul 09 2021 20:20:13 EDT from Nurb432

I also agree on #1, But not on #2.

And they are still scum of the earth, not to be trusted.  Less evil still is evil :) 

Fri Jul 09 2021 08:15:37 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

I agree that Microsoft is "kinder and gentler" - Also probably a lot less confident, arrogant and annoying. 



 



 



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