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[#] Mon Feb 09 2015 21:30:06 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Definitely that was a lot of "get off my lawn", but he might as well have been talking about Red Hat or Ubutu or Debian instead of the freebsd ports, because the Linux userland is *exactly the same source base as* the FreeBSD ports tree. And it has many of the same dependency hell problems.

From the outside looking in ( I haven't written Windows code since toy projects in high school ) it actually looks like Windows might have ended up getting more things right (except for their appalling filesystem semantics) than Linux did, because Linux grew by accretion and Windows was kinda sorta architected.

[#] Mon Feb 09 2015 21:32:04 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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He conveniently leaves out all of the places where quality is present

because someone is paying attention to it, or even better, because
there are customers paying for it (Red Hat, Oracle, etc).

But see he wasn't talking about the freebsd ports tree, he was talking about the upstream sources that feed into that. And now you're coming along and saying "don't worry, Red Hat will put lipstick on it."

[#] Fri Feb 13 2015 10:41:53 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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That sounds like "no one is worrying about quality control except for the people who are paid to be responsible for quality control."

[#] Fri Feb 13 2015 12:51:44 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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The QA toons are paid to find bugs (can we pay them by the bug? I digress.) They are not paid to ensure quality in the sense he was talking about.

[#] Sat Feb 14 2015 15:27:28 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Sounds good in theory but Exchange is still a buggy pile of crap, easily exceeded by "sloppy" software, no matter how many "real QA people" are thrown at it.

[#] Mon Feb 16 2015 15:27:43 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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It is very good at what it was designed for, which is to pad salaries of ops.

[#] Wed Feb 18 2015 08:22:48 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Well yes, there is that.  It pains me to see a bunch of paper tigers insisting that you need half a dozen servers to provide email to a group of 100 people, because that's what they were told was "best practice."  And then it has regular outages and they all blame each other.

This is not an exaggeration; I speak from direct experience.  The environment in question ran Citadel for nearly seven years without a single outage.  So you have a system built by hobbyists in our spare time, with quality that greatly exceeds an expensive system built by thousands of highly paid developers and QA people.

So I'm going to come to a different conclusion.  Quality happens when someone is thinking about quality.  It happens when delivering something that works properly is held as a higher priority than delivering something that has an ever-growing feature set.  I believe that this can happen in the cathedral or in the bazaar.

[#] Wed Feb 18 2015 11:44:50 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Wearing my pointy-haired toupee for the moment... part of my responsibilities are tending toward team lead these days. So I think: quality happens if you lecture the junior devs until their ears bleed. ( I try to be a bit nicer about this than it sounds. ) That's more cathedral than bazaar though.

Imagine that... me, responsible.

[#] Wed Feb 18 2015 12:43:57 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Heh... team lead... lead developer... we're all growing up.

[#] Wed Mar 04 2015 08:01:32 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Yeah, careful about that. A bit further down that road is a group of assholes committed to your failure.

[#] Thu Mar 05 2015 12:18:34 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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As long as they're legitimate competition, I'm okay.

If their supposed to be on the same team, I need to find a smaller team.

[#] Thu Mar 05 2015 14:28:37 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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They are ostensibly on the same team, but each one of them is actually a team of one, and that team has a zero tolerance for competition.

[#] Fri Mar 06 2015 16:48:28 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Meh... I haven't had too many dealings with those types, because I don't get hired to work in environments like that. Possibly because I'm viewed as a threat.

[#] Tue Mar 10 2015 09:11:43 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Truly talented people *are* a threat to political scumbags. You wouldn't get hired to work in that kind of environment. What usually happens is that a once-docile environment grows to the point where it attracts the kind of people who put their own career advancement at a higher priority than actually being a decent corporate citizen.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 07:37:31 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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The more monitoring you have, the more trouble you find. If you don’t have monitoring, trouble finds you.

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 09:03:21 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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Splunk. Has worked very well for us.

Pricey, but when you don't have time to *design* something, you just throw a full-text search engine at your app logs.

I think we're starting to talk about a more open alternative?

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 09:07:47 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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What's the open alternative? I'm about to recommend a fairly significant spend on Splunk.

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 09:09:23 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I'll ask today. Remind me if I don't.

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 10:59:15 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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theres something like logstash, which I again instantly forgot about since its also done in some bizare language running in the java interperter.

[#] Thu Mar 19 2015 12:22:46 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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logstash is one of the alternatives we were talking about, yes. I doubt we did a full evaluation yet.

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