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[#] Fri Oct 08 2021 00:39:01 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Microsoft Stores are awesome. The one here was *always* busy... I assume Covid killed it. They held events, I have a full Xbox driving rig (seat, steering wheel, peddles with clutch, manual shiftter) because they had one out in the mall in front of their store around Christmas... 

They have a full line of Microsoft computers - but showcased particular brands... HP, Toshiba... also... 

And if you had *any* machine with Microsoft OS on it, even if you bought it somewhere else - they would fix any problem you brought in - almost always for free... Their geniuses were *actually* useful. My experience with the Apple Geniuses was usually I found myself telling *them* things about Mac OS and iOS. 

They did mimic the Apple store - but they were *better* at everything that Apple does... except phones. 

The fact that they failed shows that it isn't superior quality or superior service or superior user experience - because Microsoft Stores were designed to beat Apple at that game every time. The Surface Pro and Surface Book are both superior quality machines to Macbooks. I'm on one right now. It won't cook itself to death if I play a game on it, unlike the i7 Powerbook sitting on the desk next to it. 

The fact that Microsoft Stores are failing - illustrates it isn't the EXPERIENCE... it is the *aura*... it is the "prestige" - it is simply the cult loyalty to the brand. All Apple does is make "designer brand" computers. 

The same people who buy an M4 because it is the most expensive 4 series BMW - and then drive it like a grocery-getter to pick up their kids from school - put an Apple sticker on the window of that M4. 

[#] Fri Oct 08 2021 14:57:46 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Update on this - it seems like it's an X11 vs Wayland thing. From what

I can tell, Linux apps running in X11 mode get the crappy borders.
Native Wayland stuff looks better.

This is why I am still baffled by their decision to do weird hacks with RDP instead of just building a 100% compatible Wayland compositor that simply draws on the Windows desktop. They have the opportunity to *really* do it right, and they ought to.

Aside from that, one would imagine that Xwayland is Xwayland regardless of whether it's running on Linux or Windows. It shouldn't know or care, since it's simply accepting X11 client instructions and rendering them on Wayland.

[#] Fri Oct 08 2021 17:12:49 EDT from LoanShark

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Yeah, it's a little surprising that they didn't just host an Xwayland on the Linux side. That's the off-the-shelf solution that already exists.

The thing about Wayland is that no two compositors are created equal. I guess Weston is the reference implementation. Then you have gnome-shell and whatever KDE has.

gnome-shell implements additional protocols that are out-of-band with respect to the standard Wayland protocol. So that appears to be the reason that gnome apps, running on WSL2, don't necessarily render with the same window borders that they would get under a full Gnome session. And don't get the window "snap on drag right" behavior.

Apparently it's possible to nest a Wayland compositor within another Wayland compositor, and that might be the way to hack together a proper `gnome-shell` instance, but I don't know whether gnome-shell supports that.

[#] Wed Oct 13 2021 09:29:36 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Ooooh. I didn't know that there were different compositors under Linux. I thought they all used Weston. Now I see that Gnome uses something called "Mutter" (which I've heard of) and on KDE, KWin has been adapted to be a compositor instead of speaking to an X server.

Ok then, this makes it even *more* obvious that the Windows desktop layer (is it still called GDI?) ought to just *be* a Wayland compositor instead of having WSL clients draw onto a hidden Weston compositor and then WeirdRDP that onto the visible Windows desktop.

For the moment, on my work machine I'm back to the old fashioned way of running Linux in a virtual machine. I upgraded to WSL2 which broke the network, and I don't know how to go back to WSL1 ... and we have to assume that WSL1 will become unsupported in the not too distant future anyway.

[#] Wed Oct 13 2021 13:44:30 EDT from LoanShark

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mutter is a libary that's linked into gnome-shell. So from the user's perpsective, gnome-shell is the compositor.

I don't know how to downgrade a WSL2 distro once it's been upgraded, but I believe you can create a new WSL1 distro with the `wsl` program at a Command Prompt.

[#] Thu Oct 14 2021 14:55:31 EDT from LoanShark

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Oh, they *did* host Xwayland and Weston on the Linux side. It's just that it's all containerized, so you don't see the processes in the user distro.

[#] Fri Oct 15 2021 15:41:41 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Hopefully the ability to run Linux software on Windows will end up the same way as the ability to run Windows software on OS/2. :)

I think some of that diagram might be wrong (for example, the X window manager inside weston, or PulseAudio talking to Weston rather than FreeRDP) but yes, weston is definitely running on the Linux side, drawing into a virtual frame buffer that is scraped by RDP.

It feels like they're going for something similar to VirtualBox running Linux in "seamless mode" but the choice to use RDP really skeeves me. Enabling the Wayland protocols on the Windows side and rendering with the native GDI just feels like such a clean and native way to go. Hopefully they go that way eventually.

In fact, they should make Wayland the native graphics system for Windows

[#] Fri Oct 15 2021 16:58:39 EDT from Nurb432

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Fri Oct 15 2021 03:41:41 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

In fact, they should make Wayland the native graphics system for Windows


[#] Sat Oct 16 2021 12:06:22 EDT from LoanShark

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I think some of that diagram might be wrong (for example, the X window

manager inside weston, or PulseAudio talking to Weston rather than

well, gnome-shell is the window manager and it's also the compositor, when running either in X11 mode or in Wayland mode.

[#] Sun Oct 17 2021 17:58:31 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Right, that sounds like it makes a lot of sense, since it was compositing anyway. That would explain why gnome on wayland is almost indistinguishable from gnome on X11, at least from simply looking at the screen.

Wayland becoming the native GDI for Windows would be an excellent step forward in eventually retiring Windows.

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