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[#] Wed Oct 26 2011 10:45:22 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Wed Oct 26 2011 09:49:45 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
Well, I think one of the reasons Ubuntu picked up so many n00bs so quickly is because for the first few years, they'd send free CD's to anyone who wanted them.

I do remember at the time that Ubuntu's desktop was just so much better looking than anything else out there. Nowadays I'm not seeing much of a difference.

you probably didn't compare it to SuSE or Mandriva...



[#] Wed Oct 26 2011 16:34:00 EDT from athos-mn @ Uncensored

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Does anyone use Slackware anymore? That's what I started on (well, after SCO OpenServer); was great for learning the guts of the system.



[#] Wed Oct 26 2011 18:14:44 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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I fear I will burn in eternal slacklessness...

I always wanted to try it, since SuSE seems to be derived from it. But than again, it seems to involve too much compiling on your own and I can already do that in gentoo and more elegant, as it sounds to me. But I might try it just to praise the man with the pipe. 



[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 08:00:37 EDT from Stefan @ Uncensored

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I thought that Ubuntu's advantage is its user community. It should be quite easy for a beginner to find help by browsing a little bit through the www.

I tried Ubuntu 11.10 here at work. Unity was quite OK, but too slow (maybe it was a broken RAM module and not unity). I'm running fedora with fluxbox now. I would have preferred gnome3 but it doesn't support my graphic card.



[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 12:57:16 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Ok, so I'm converting my primary development machine to Debian. Let's see how this experiment goes. If I like what I see then I may begin switching my desktops eventually.

I also happen to be in the market for a new server Linux, since we're not happy with CentOS 6 here.

[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 14:07:52 EDT from Ford II @ Uncensored

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If what you really want is ubuntu with the other x desktop why not just install the x desktop. Save yourself all the reinstallation grief. debian doesn't buy you anything else, what's th epoint.

But more interestingly: what's wrong with centos? Is redhat going down the wrong path of some kind?

And my big question of the day: all those ubergeeks who are working on the up and coming versions of whatever distro they're working on... what do they actually RUN on their development machines while they're doing their development. Seems to me that would be a good question to know the answer too.
If a alpha of a distro is just plain broken, they're not going to be using it wHILE they're fixing it, so what ARE they using?

[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 16:29:39 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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well, I don't run SID on my netbook just for the shake of the many disk operations (flash you know...)

before, I did that.

my home desktop (which I access mostly via ssh..) still runs SID.

my worst scenarios were X not starting, which was fixeable by rtfm & nagging others on IRC.

my $work workstation usualy runs debian stable for half a year or so until the next testing is more stable again (theres a little rush after the freeze, you know? ;-)

my last upgrade to testing failed due to disk space, and I needed to boot it with grml since I fucked up my libc. took me some extra hours in the office that day.

The upcomming 8.10 citadel release requires bleeding edge libev; which i3wm.org (which I sometimes compile from git...) also uses.

Had a fukup with that too, required me to recompile & install my windowmanager from the commandline, roughly an hour or two without X.

 

You know, all these fuckups might be challanging to fix, be a bit anoying, but I prefer that over having to turn my carpet into direction Me aeh Redmond, fall down on my knees to get my box back up & running once it fails.



[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 16:30:26 EDT from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Thu Oct 27 2011 12:57:16 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
Ok, so I'm converting my primary development machine to Debian. Let's see how this experiment goes. If I like what I see then I may begin switching my desktops eventually.

I also happen to be in the market for a new server Linux, since we're not happy with CentOS 6 here.

run

dpkg-buildpackage

to get a list of all missing software to compile citadel.



[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 16:37:50 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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If what you really want is ubuntu with the other x desktop why not just install the x desktop. Save yourself all the reinstallation grief. debian doesn't buy you anything else, what's th epoint.

Quite true, and that is in fact what I have already done.  At the moment I am evaluating strategies for new installs.

 

But more interestingly: what's wrong with centos? Is redhat going down the wrong path of some kind?

In the couple of weeks that we've had CentOS 6, we have had a number of machines just completely blow themselves up.  Their implementation of ext4 is, for some reason, unstable under certain types of storage.  The same storage works fine with ext3 or with a non-CentOS distribution.

Add to that the fact that Red Hat has added even more unwanted crap to the "minimal" install that we have to turn off for every build.  Bloody acres of enterprise-ey daemons and services that are irrelevant in a service provider environment.  Debian doesn't give you anything you don't ask for, which for a service provider is awesome because there are no listening ports open by default, no extra services consuming memory and disk, etc.


And my big question of the day: all those ubergeeks who are working on the up and coming versions of whatever distro they're working on... what do they actually RUN on their development machines while they're doing their development. Seems to me that would be a good question to know the answer too.
If a alpha of a distro is just plain broken, they're not going to be using it wHILE they're fixing it, so what ARE they using?

They use Windows, silly.



[#] Thu Oct 27 2011 21:38:26 EDT from Sig @ Uncensored

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I went from Ubuntu to Linux Mint Debian Edition for my netbook. I still need a Windows partition for work, but day-to-day I stay in LMDE. I've been pretty happy with it for... I dunno, 6-8 months?

[#] Sun Oct 30 2011 04:41:02 EDT from TheOneLaw @ Uncensored

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Thu Oct 27 2011 21:38:26 EDT from Sig @ Uncensored
I went from Ubuntu to Linux Mint Debian Edition for my netbook. I still need a Windows partition for work, but day-to-day I stay in LMDE. I've been pretty happy with it for... I dunno, 6-8 months?

After 8 years of Mandriva now moving to LMDE also - I hope this turns out as well as it looks.

Although hyped as a rolling release, LMDE is (fortunately) not quite that suicidal but close enough to the bleeding edge

 to not be waiting forever for new packages.

our first test install has definitely been rock solid,

My next task is to build it into being a Proxmox VM so I can use it in a USB3 key on whichever of my different computers I happen

 to be around at the moment ( I have one at home, one in the office, one in the field, one at the labs and it seems logical

 just to carry one image around and use that instead of trying to keep each individual machine mirrored)

-- 
TheOneLaw



[#] Fri Nov 04 2011 07:36:24 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Oooh, I like the idea of a "rolling" distribution. It's definitely not for everyone, but the idea of simply getting constant updates instead of ever having a Big New Version (tm) seems attractive for an end user.

Let us know how that works out for you.

[#] Fri Nov 04 2011 15:02:10 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Heh. :)

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/886305


[#] Sun Nov 06 2011 04:53:14 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

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Fri Nov 04 2011 15:02:10 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
Heh. :)

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/886305

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-desktop-designers-clarify-on-configurability/

You're not alone ;-)



[#] Sun Nov 06 2011 12:05:15 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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At the moment I'm posting the same comments to every Ubuntu and/or Unity story I come across. It's a shame because there was so much energy around what was formerly a great distribution, but now they've alienated the vast majority of their existing user base, so it's pretty clear Ubuntu has jumped the shark and this is the end of the line for them. Ubuntu in pace requiescat!

[#] Sun Nov 06 2011 20:44:44 EST from zooer @ Uncensored

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I also have become disappointed with Ubuntu.  I could probably make the change from Gnome2 to Gnome3 but unity drove me crazy.  I heard there were people who wanted to work on a gnome2 fork but haven't followed the progression.  I tried using XFCE and seem to enjoy that but it is missing some of the features I have gotten used to in Gnome.

I am wondering what distro will be my next choice, the only one I have mildly tested was Fedora.  I am sure any other distro will be fine, but I don't think I will stick with Ubuntu.

Tis a shame, rumor has it, they were trying to move into the phone market.



[#] Mon Nov 07 2011 15:00:46 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: The final word on Ubuntu and Unity

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I became an Ubuntu user in 2006. I didn't want to like it - Ubuntu was marketed as a multicultural, politically correct distribution of the Linux operating system, and as a patriotic American I didn't find that appealing. But I'm open minded so I tried it anyway -- and there was no getting around the fact that Ubuntu offered a desktop that paid attention to detail, looked good, and just worked. This was what we needed, and in the years that followed, Ubuntu rocketed to the top as a favorite of both new and experienced Linux users alike.

Sadly, those heady days have come to an end -- and it didn't have to happen. The Linux that rose to the top of the heap and was going to be the consumer grade Linux on which users, ISV's, and OEM's could focus, fell from grace and became the Linux that likes to alienate its existing users. So what went wrong?

Last year, our friends at Canonical introduced Unity, a new user interface for netbook computers that seemed to make sense at the time. Unfortunately, they then decided to make Unity the primary user interface for all versions of Ubuntu, including those running on laptops and desktops with large, high-resolution monitors.

The vast majority of existing Linux users are rejecting Unity. We want desktops that look and act like desktops, not like overgrown, broken smartphones. The general consensus seems to be that the new favorite is Xfce, which ironically was designed to run efficiently on low-spec hardware. Open source luminary Eric Raymond famously switched from Unity to Xfce after a protracted rant about Unity's unsuitability for general desktop use. Another recent convert is Linus Torvalds, who knows a thing or two about the Linux operating system after having created its kernel -- he switched to Xfce after calling GNOME 3 an 'unholy mess'.

It's possible that the GNOME team may realize that they 'pulled a Vista' with the GNOME Shell and perhaps clean up their mess in the next version. I have no such hopes for Ubuntu and Unity. Unity is Mark Shuttleworth's pet project, and he is openly hostile to its critics. This seems to be the standard procedure being adopted by all Canonical employees, who habitually close threads on their message boards which attempt to discuss the topic.

I've been running my desktops on Xfce for a few months now. Helpful people in various message boards suggested that the easiest way to make Ubuntu 11.04 and 11.10 usable again is to type apt-get install xubuntu-desktop to install Xfce, and that is indeed the quick fix. But this raises the question: now that the formerly good looking and usable desktop has been taken away, what's the point of using Ubuntu in the first place? Other distributions have largely closed the gap in other places, and the only thing Ubuntu has an edge on right now is a slightly easier installer (particularly if your system requires non-free bits to run). I made the decision to switch to stock Debian, and upon doing so I found that most of the things that I liked about Ubuntu were simply brought forth from the Debian base.

And what of those other devices, the smartphones and tablets for whose touchscreens Unity was intended? Will any of them ever see an Ubuntu installation, other than perhaps retrofits installed by a few end users? For the mass market, we already have a version of the Linux operating system that runs on these devices: it's called Android and its place as the long-term leader is almost completely cemented at this point. There will likely be a few "looks like a tablet but it's really a PC" products, but those will be intended to run Microsoft Windows 8, and Ubuntu will find an uphill battle there similar to the one it currently faces on conventional desktop computers.

Therefore, if Unity is its future, then it is clear that Ubuntu has jumped the shark. The debate is essentially over: there is a general consensus among Linux users that Unity is practically unusable on a computer with an upright display. If this is the direction in which they are committed to continue to go, then the age of Ubuntu has come to an end. In pace requiescat!



[#] Mon Nov 07 2011 15:05:45 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: The final word on Ubuntu and Unity

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Feel free to grab the permalink to the above editorial and spread it around your favorite Linux sites. The permalink is: http://uncensored.citadel.org/B64L3JlYWRmd2Q/Z289TGludXg/c3RhcnRfcmVhZGluZ19hdD0zMDQyNTgxIzMwNDI1ODE=

[#] Tue Nov 08 2011 02:44:13 EST from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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I have to admit that I only saw video footage of Windows8 and Unity, but I came to the conclusion that we are probably becoming too old for new concepts. Hearing that people like Raymond and Torvalds change to xfce is not a sign of progress or a legitimate protest for me, but a sign of grumpyness. The oldschool linux users (and possibly all oldschool computer users) are used to some kind of text interface on a ultra low res black/green screen with horribly usability. Display managers are only a method to them for displaying more than one program window at a time. And thats how your usual LUG screenshot section looks like: Some fluxbox or xmonad desktop, having lots of terminals open with your most antique gtk2 theme, making it look like motif was still the hippest thing you could use. This is not what your average user wants!

Now, I don't know what your usual user wants, I am not one of them. I want lots of terminals, too. But I can't stand the rectangular motif looks. I am using enlightenment17 (the desktop) since about six years, because it was the most lightweight but stylish alternative to all the retro looking resource hoggers at that time. I still use it. But I also instantly choose the Classical design on windows XP installs, because I prefer it over the candystyle of the XP default theme. And I now lots of windows users who do this in Win7 installs. These people also are annoyed by every single style or comfort feature which win7 offers. They are control freaks, too. (I know this because I am one myself when it comes to computers, most of the time).

I installed win7 for my mom and girlfriend and they were like "Oh, this looks all so odd" but now they are using it perfectly well and I get less complaints and they are asking fewer times for help. There also must be a reason for the massive popularity of Apple hardware, something they are doing right. And they have one of the most freaking complicated input method with this finder. But especially females and people from non-desing focused branches (I know lots of architects, but also some electrical engineers) like it.

So what is my point here? The point is, that we live in a time were possible most little girls can beat me in a computer game on the Wii/PS3/Xbox. Were more people have a mobile contract than landlines (15 years ago, only drug dealers and brokers had mobiles!), were CPU and GPU powers are so vast that there are almost no limits to your input interface and were touchscreens become more and more popular (if this makes sense or not). 20 years ago, the keyboard was everything and a mouse kind of a nice gift for games. Remember that you PC guys didnt own proper joysticks and gaming on the Amiga/Atari was so much more fun because we didn't need to bang at our keyboards? Now we are moving to the next input method, so moving to new interfaces is just a logical step. If we grumpy "old" men like it or not ;)



[#] Tue Nov 08 2011 18:41:13 EST from zooer @ Uncensored

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Interesting thought.  I was accused of "not liking change" when I said I didn't like Gnome3/Unity.  I am still using 10.4 on my desktop.  Perhaps that not liking change is true, I went from DOS 5.5 to W2K Pro.  I had Windows 3.1 on the machines, but I only used it for a few things. 

I think the newer icon based systems is for dumbing down the user.  I remember jokes about making fast food registers with pictures of hamburgers so the person behind the counter could know what food you wanted without knowing how to read.  The simpler the interface, the dumber the user.



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