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[#] Tue May 29 2012 20:43:49 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Fedora 17 released today

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Greetings,

Since I'm a Fedora fanboi I thought I'd mention that Fedora 17 was released today.  I started using it shortly after the beta came out several weeks back.  I have made a remix that includes GNOME, KDE, LXDE, XFCE, and a few others... and lots of desktop apps... and Flash, Google Chrome, and a few other things.  I've been remixing it since like Fedora 9 but I haven't really registered it with DistroWatch... because do we really need more distros?    Also I haven't really done any true customization... I've just added a few extra repos (rpmforge and google) and pre-installed all of the software I like on my machines.  I call it MontanaLinux.

If anyone is interested in it, please let me know and I can share the URL.  It is a LiveDVD that is about 1.8GB (dowdle@montanalinux.org)

-- 
TYL,
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Tue May 29 2012 22:27:47 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Fedora 17 released today

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I would be interested.



[#] Wed May 30 2012 01:19:25 EDT from athos-mn @ Uncensored

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Installing Slackware 13 on ESXi - bring back a lot of memories. I know a bunch of you like other VM hosts, but I'm kinda interested in playing around with different distros, and I don't have to worry about trashing the base OS. And Slackware because I kind of feel like my Linux mojo is rusty, and this is what I learned it on, and seems like a good place to re-learn.

 

First task after my install is completed (later) is to move my Citadel installation over.



[#] Wed May 30 2012 09:18:36 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Fedora 17 released today

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You can find it here:

http://img.cs.montana.edu/linux/montanalinux/

I rebuild it and rev the number usually every week or two... as updates come out.  Our network sucks sometimes so I recommend using "wget -c [URL]" from the command line to downloadi it... so if it times out you can continue it.  Of course that assumes you have Linux already.  Building a Fedora spin or remix is actually very easy and the scripts used to build MontanaLinux are included in /root/livecd-creator/MontanaLinux/.  KDM/KDE are the default but of course you can pick what you want from the session selector button that is part of the login screen.


TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Wed May 30 2012 09:37:27 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

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Wed May 30 2012 01:19:25 AM EDT from athos-mn @ Uncensored

I know a bunch of you like other VM hosts, but I'm kinda interested in playing around with different distros, and I don't have to worry about trashing the base OS.

I have no issues with you picking whatever virtualization platform you want... but I did want to clarify what I believe to be a perception you have from your statement.  Installing some virtualization products can "trash" your distro... if by trashing you mean they use a third-party module that hooks into the kernel... and that module has to be recompiled (or updated via a binary package) every time you change your kernel.  Pretty much all hosted (aka a Type 2 hypervisor) virt products are that way.

ESXi is a bare-metal (aka Type 1 hypervisor) that doesn't trash your distro because it is an operating system unto itself.

KVM is kind of a hybrid.  I guess technically it is hosted but I consider it to be Type 1.5... a hybrid between type 1 and type 2.  KVM is three stock Linux kernel modules (kvm, kvm_intel or kvm_amd) that have been part of the mainline Linux kernel since 2.6.20... so it is a no-brainer... because it can't trash your system... it *IS* your system. Of course you do have to install some additional (almost always packaged/provided by your distro) userland pacakges like libvirt and virt-manager to use it... and KVM requires hardware support for virtualization be present in your CPU (http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/FAQ#How_can_I_tell_if_I_have_Intel_VT_or_AMD-V.3F) but other than that it is 100% natural and totally organic. :)

Then again, I don't mind poluting some of my systems with a third-party kernel patch for better quality containers (OpenVZ), but that is another topic.

TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Wed May 30 2012 10:44:52 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I really think that with the advent of hardware-assisted virtualization, there is no practical difference in performance between "type 1" and "type 2" hypervisors.
There's way too much mud in that water at this point. For example, HyperV is billed as a "type 1" hypervisor, but you can't remove Windows 2008 from it, so does it really matter? VMware ESXi is a "type 1" hypervisor but there's still a barebones Linux supervising it, whether they admit it or not.

There really is no such thing as a bare metal hypervisor. You need to have some sort of minimal operating system supervising (hypervising?) it. The goal ought to be to have the ability to strip down the OS to the bare essentials required to run virtual machines, while at the same time allowing the server administrator to activate whatever portions of the operating system are required if he needs to run things like management/monitoring software. VMware ESX did that nicely; ESXi totally blows it.

KVM is nice because it runs on standard Linux and you can run as much or as little of that Linux as you need.

In any case, running major applications by themselves in virtual machines is almost always a design win, imho ... it gives you the modularity and flexibility to manage everything nice and cleanly.

[#] Wed May 30 2012 12:16:05 EDT from roue @ Dog Pound BBS II

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+1 for KVM from me. I've tried a bunch of these and while it may not be the fastest, having it part of the mainline kernel overrides all the other advantages (for my admittedly desktop virtualization needs). I miss Xen's xm console, but with VNC it's not too bad. I know you can set up a serial console but I've never managed to get it working.

[#] Wed May 30 2012 15:37:22 EDT from athos-mn @ Uncensored

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Never having used ESX, I don't know what VMWare did to cause ESXi to suck. And so far it's working, so no complaints (OK one - the VSphere console blows). Basically, I didn't want to install a full blown OS, install KVM (or other) on it, then decide I didn't like it.

 

Unfortunately, I have to have the occasional Windows Server install on it, if just for testing, and KVM's didn't look all that great (mostly looking here: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Guest_Support_Status#Windows_Family).

 

Meh, it's a choice. It's doing what I want. It's saving me a bundle on having to replace a bunch of systems at once.



[#] Wed May 30 2012 23:12:30 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Fedora 17 released today

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Thanks!  Probably will get to it in the near future ...  Time is not on my side. (singing in my head).



[#] Thu May 31 2012 00:28:40 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Type 1 vs Type 2

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Wed May 30 2012 10:44:52 AM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
I really think that with the advent of hardware-assisted virtualization, there is no practical difference in performance between "type 1" and "type 2" hypervisors.

I think there is a big difference between type 1 and type 2... mainly with the install.  As you surely already know, with the type 1 hypervisors you can just install them on the bare-metal.  With the type 2, you have to already have an OS installed and install the virt product just like an app.

I know, I know... you were saying that there isn't much difference with regards to performance.  I have no real data on that but I would love to see some... and believe that bare metal ones should come out on top... although yeah... by how many percentage points I'm not sure.  VMware USED to require a Linux install to manage it but they got rid of that with the ESX.  VMware is supposedly a standalone hypervisor OS with a management API/service running on top of it.  We use it at work but I don't have to work with it so perhaps I'm just ignorant.  Xen is very much like you described.  While in reality it is a thin hypervisor OS with its own device drivers... it does require Linux running in dom0 to manage the other domains.  I guess Xen (since 3.0 added fully virtualized VMs) is a lot like VMware.  I don't know much about HyperV but I'm guessing it is to Windows like KVM is to Linux.


TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Thu May 31 2012 00:42:26 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Give SPICE a try

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Wed May 30 2012 12:16:05 PM EDT from roue @ Dog Pound BBS II
I miss Xen's xm console, but with VNC it's not too bad. I know you can set up a serial console but I've never managed to get it working.


If you are doing desktop / GUI stuff in your Linux VMs or running Windows, you should give SPICE a try.  If the distro you are using doesn't offer SPICE support, you are using the wrong distro to run your KVM VMs on.  While SPICE is still under active development and their progress on client apps has been lagging, if you know where to look, it actually is pretty good... well... on a LAN.  WAN support is still on their radar but it has a way to go.

Need a SPICE client for Windows?  Look here:

http://elmarco.fedorapeople.org/     (See virt-viewer-0.5.3.exe and what it ads to the Start menu)

For Linux, spicy is pretty good.  spicec still works ok but they are moving away from the widget set that was written with and spicec is darn clunky.  If you want to use URLs on a webpage to load your client (and there are sample HTML pages to go by), install spice-xpi (currently Linux-only).

No Mac client yet.  There was one but I don't think it works anymore.

Mobile clients?  Not that I know of although supposedly there are a few user-built ones floating around.  I don't have a tablet nor smartphone so I haven't looked for them.

USB redirection was added fairly recently with an addon package but I haven't tried that yet.  I haven't really had a use for it yet.

Sound works fairly well and A/V sync is pretty good.  Microphones have worked fine for me but I haven't used them a whole lot.  Can't do any of that stuff in VNC.

The thing I like about KVM is that I can have my desktop VMs use DHCP and get private IPs but I can access them from a port on the host node.  I've connected to VMs on local host as well as remote ones.  Works great as long as you are suffering from a resource shortage on the client or the VM host.


TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Thu May 31 2012 00:58:32 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: KVM for Windows VMS?

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Wed May 30 2012 03:37:22 PM EDT from athos-mn @ Uncensored
Unfortunately, I have to have the occasional Windows Server install on it, if just for testing, and KVM's didn't look all that great (mostly looking here: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Guest_Support_Status#Windows_Family).

I say give KVM a try with Windows VMs.  Looking at those reports most of them seem to be using Ubuntu Server 9.04 as their host node.  I wouldn't call that a modern system... so those are either dated reports or not really the prefered setup.  To me running KVM on Red Hat-based systems (RHEL, RHEL clone, or Fedora) seems to be the way to go because Red Hat (since they merged with Qumranet) really is in the drivers seat.  They are also the developers of all of the userland stuff (libvirt, virt-manager, SPICE, etc).  They are also reponsible for about 12-17% of every kernel release being the top company sponser since measurments started being done several years ago.

Red Hat is also pioneering cgroups to offer finer grained resource management of KVM VMs.  They have also been doing a lot of work with the virtio drivers, benchmarking, and fine-tuning.  Their engineers have given many presentations on how to tune KVM and when done properly, it seems to be winning the benchmarks... but you know what they say about benchmarks.

Now having said all of that, I'm NOT an advanced KVM user myself.  I don't get into the nuts and bolts of performance.  I only run a dozen or so VMs... with only a small handful of them being production stuff... and I'm not in a low resource environment where I'm trying to squeeze out as much performance as possible.  I just use virt-manager and mostly go with the defaults... and don't get into CPU flags nor pinning.  The tuning stuff still seems to be a black art but that is definitely changing as KVM matures.  Just remember that the first version of VMware came out in 1999... and that KVM is still rather young... although it has come a long way in a short amount of time by comparison.

TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Thu May 31 2012 16:13:34 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: KVM for Windows VMS?

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2008 R2 working fine on a few installs with me (KVM/Libvirt).  Mostly using as file / print servers, but had run 2010 Exchange on 2k8r2 as well.



[#] Thu May 31 2012 16:17:50 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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Just thought I'd mention that the developer has decided to let more people use it now and announced its availability:  virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows.

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/spice-devel/2012-May/009406.html

-- 
TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Thu May 31 2012 16:37:29 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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Just playing around with it and I guess I don't know what uri syntax it wants.



[#] Sat Jun 02 2012 10:48:45 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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Thu May 31 2012 04:37:29 PM EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Just playing around with it and I guess I don't know what uri syntax it wants.




If you run the GUI it has a dialog box where you can put in the hostname and port.  If you are running it from the command line, it takes a URI like:

spice://hostname?port=xxxx

Let me know if that works for you or not.

-- 
TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle
Belgrade, Montana



[#] Sat Jun 02 2012 22:53:49 EDT from ax25 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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Thanks Scott.  Will give that a shot later in the week.



[#] Mon Jun 04 2012 13:22:06 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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spice://hostname?port=xxxx

...because it was important to throw away two decades of URI syntax convention and avoid spice://hostname:portnum at all costs. ^_^

[#] Mon Jun 04 2012 23:53:46 EDT from maraakate @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: How To: Download Kid's Educational Shows from YouTube in a free format

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No apt-get for debian :(

[#] Tue Jun 05 2012 08:41:21 EDT from dowdle @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released

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Mon Jun 04 2012 01:22:06 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: virt-viewer-0.5.3 for Windows officially released
spice://hostname?port=xxxx

...because it was important to throw away two decades of URI syntax convention and avoid spice://hostname:portnum at all costs. ^_^

My guess is that it can now or will in the future... accept additional parameters in the form of key=value pairs and they decided to go with one style for all of it rather than one style for the port value and a second style for everything else.  I haven't dug down deep into the protocol but I can imagine that under certain conditions it can take things like monitors=N, resolution=NxN, colordepth=N, etc.

TYL,
--
Scott Dowdle, Belgrade, Montana



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