Please wait...
Wayland was the first X replacement that actually gained some traction. Give
it time, it's definitely a better design for modern display hardware. Have
you read the design doc that showed how the X server ended up just being an
extra layer of complexity between the clients and the compositor? Wayland
fixes that and does it well.
Yup. Given enough time someone will fill in whatever feature gap you are
perceiving. For the average user Wayland has already surpassed X in usability
and maintainability. Don't you think that if it was possible to "just fix
the problems in X" they would have done that instead? As the architecture
document says: "Most of the complexity that the X server used to handle is
now available in the kernel or self contained libraries (KMS, evdev, mesa,
fontconfig, freetype, cairo, Qt, etc). In general, the X server is now just
a middle man that introduces an extra step between applications and the compositor
and an extra step between the compositor and the hardware."
This change needed to happen for a long time. The fact that one approach finally gained traction is a good thing.
These things get changed around in other operating systems too; you just don't see them because they're buried under closed source. The developers inside those companies still have the same discussions. The difference for open source is that we get to see them.
There are some (including a few folks who have passed through these forums from time to time) who labor under the false assumption that the *entire* open source community is acting, or ought to act, as a single entity -- as if everyone who ever contributed code is an employee of a virtual company that competes with Microsoft and Apple. There is no such thing, and that's good because *every* approach will be tried. It's not as if someone "at the top" decided Wayland would replace X in "the new version of the OS" and it was forced downwards. Remember when the ubuntu folks tried to replace X with "Mir"? That failed completely because Mir couldn't cut the mustard.
"I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"
-- Charles Dickens, obviously talking about Wayland
This change needed to happen for a long time. The fact that one approach finally gained traction is a good thing.
These things get changed around in other operating systems too; you just don't see them because they're buried under closed source. The developers inside those companies still have the same discussions. The difference for open source is that we get to see them.
There are some (including a few folks who have passed through these forums from time to time) who labor under the false assumption that the *entire* open source community is acting, or ought to act, as a single entity -- as if everyone who ever contributed code is an employee of a virtual company that competes with Microsoft and Apple. There is no such thing, and that's good because *every* approach will be tried. It's not as if someone "at the top" decided Wayland would replace X in "the new version of the OS" and it was forced downwards. Remember when the ubuntu folks tried to replace X with "Mir"? That failed completely because Mir couldn't cut the mustard.
"I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"
-- Charles Dickens, obviously talking about Wayland
No. I dont think they would.
1 - The general consensus with most people today is "toss it out totally and start over". Some of it is due to inability to think differently, some of it is "im better than those idiots, im not going to fix their code"
2 - It's a conspiracy against what UNIX stands for. Same reason SystemD appeared, like a virus. Its part of a larger plan. Create a monolithic unsupportable anti-unix blob of crap, then quietly move it over to be proprietary. Is it organized by a single group? I could be wrong, but i doubt it, its more of an anti-freedom agenda, secretly pushed by all the big names.
Thu Aug 08 2024 09:33:51 EDT from IGnatius T FoobarDon't you think that if it was possible to "just fix the problems in X" they would have done that instead?
Screw Ubuntu. they are as bad as the rest, trying to become proprietary / walled garden / lock-in, riding off the backs of other's hard work. They need to be eradicated with fire.
Thu Aug 08 2024 09:33:51 EDT from IGnatius T FoobarRemember when the ubuntu folks tried to replace X with "Mir"? That failed completely because Mir couldn't cut the mustard.
Or does the above belong in the paranoia room instead?
lol.
"nothing is ever as it seems on the stage, always look behind the curtain"
When proprietary bits appear, people work around them. When undesirable bits
appear, people simply don't use them. Ubuntu came out with its "Unity" desktop
and it was so despised that they eventually had to bin it.
Like it or not, systemd and wayland are improvements. This isn't Miguel Hitler de Icaza and Nat Hitler Friedman secretly working for Microsoft while pretending to be part of the community. systemd and wayland are organic improvements, born of open source, and adopted because a consensus of people in the community observed it.
Bitterly clinging to "muh unix philosophy" is luddite behavior. Sometimes change is good. Sometimes it isn't. Here it is.
Like it or not, systemd and wayland are improvements. This isn't Miguel Hitler de Icaza and Nat Hitler Friedman secretly working for Microsoft while pretending to be part of the community. systemd and wayland are organic improvements, born of open source, and adopted because a consensus of people in the community observed it.
Bitterly clinging to "muh unix philosophy" is luddite behavior. Sometimes change is good. Sometimes it isn't. Here it is.
And im ok with that.
:)
Thu Aug 08 2024 17:02:40 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
Bitterly clinging to "muh unix philosophy" is luddite behavior.
Like it or not, systemd and wayland are improvements. This isn't
Miguel Hitler de Icaza and Nat Hitler Friedman secretly working for
Microsoft while pretending to be part of the community. systemd and
In case you were not aware, Poettering is currently employed at Microsoft.
Some of us believe he always was..
Sun Aug 11 2024 10:38:50 EDT from zelgomerIn case you were not aware, Poettering is currently employed at Microsoft.
Like it or not, systemd and wayland are improvements. This isn't
Miguel Hitler de Icaza and Nat Hitler Friedman secretly working for
Microsoft while pretending to be part of the community. systemd and
wayland are organic improvements, born of open source, and adopted
because a consensus of people in the community observed it.
Systemd is a clear example of a piece of software forced in a top-down manner instead of adopted organically. It was spawned by Red Hat's black cauldron
and suddenly adopted and pushed as a dependency by every other project Red Hat.
The fact it requires so much effort today to run or maintain a systemdless Linux distribution is a testament to how much work Red Hat placed on ensuring systemd was unavoidable. AND THEY STILL FAILED.
For me, that is the main problem I have with systemd. It is not the fact it attempts to take over logging functions, or $HOME management, or whatever. The problem is that it is an attempt at taking over the userspace in order to make the userspace more suitable for Red Hat's purposes and so many people is jumping over to it because it is the path of least resistence. They ever attempted to force the Linux kernel to integrate with systemd (and Linus' response was what you may expect).
Conspiracy theories go Systemd was a deliberate jab against FreeBSD from Red Hat, which saw yet another opportunity to make things hard for Beasty. THe theories gain some backing by the fact Pottering himself pretty much has declared Systemd was gonna kick the BSDs in the nuts and that it was not going to get out of its way to be BSD compatible. IN fact he is actively trying for it to be compatible with nothing.
I don't have that axe to grind against Wayland for the simple reason Wayland is not being enforced in such dickish manners. I am also not a fan of X11 (I doubt I will be a Wyland fan either) which makes the issue more "meh" fore me.
Some of us believe he always was..
Naah. Microsoft paid Miguel&Nat to muddy the waters with GNOME at the exact moment KDE was about to launch the Linux desktop into the mainstream. Later on, Microsoft paid Miguel&Nat to muddy the waters with Mono to dilute Linux developer mindshare away from Java and/or Python. Eventually, Microsoft paid Miguel&Nat to use Novell to try and destroy SuSE.
Microsoft makes money from Linux now and it doesn't buy them anything to sabotage it anymore.
KDE is my daily driver. It seems fine to me. My problem with GNOME is that
there's no reliable way to keep ALL of the controls at the bottom of the screen.
I've tried all of the "dash/dock" type extensions and they always seem to break.
I've tried all of the "dash/dock" type extensions and they always seem to break.
Until it dies, ill stick with lxde. Does the job i need, and isn't cluttered.
Aside from the bloat ( which as you said, is mostly fixed now ) i saw no need for KDE back then when i stopped using all K-apps.. was just extra overhead.
Sat Aug 24 2024 11:54:18 EDT from IGnatius T FoobarKDE is my daily driver. It seems fine to me. My problem with GNOME is that there's no reliable way to keep ALL of the controls at the bottom of the screen.
I've tried all of the "dash/dock" type extensions and they always seem to break.
2024-08-24 17:52 from Nurb432
Until it dies, ill stick with lxde. Does the job i need, and
isn't cluttered.
Aside from the bloat ( which as you said, is mostly fixed now )
i saw no need for KDE back then when i stopped using all
K-apps.. was just extra overhead.
I use minimalisic Window Managers myself rather than a full desktop solution. LXDE is fine, though.
KDE is a good choice for "other people." When I set a Linux system for somebody else, I tend to use KDE because it looks more professional for normies and it typically works better than the alternatives they are used to.
Tail's implementation of Gnome is okeish because it is comparatively spartan.
My needs are pretty simple. And I do like my computer to look like a computer, not like a phone or a tablet, or whatever a Mac is these days :)
I did make a change yesterday ... I gave up the display manager (SDDM in my case). Now the machine boots in text mode and I have my .bash_profile set to run "exec startplasma-wayland" (the equivalent of "startx" but for a KDE Plasma session on Wayland) if the login tty is /dev/tty1. I did this because even when the desktop is on Wayland, SDDM was still running on X -- and staying resident with the full X display on another console after login.
I'm sure they'll fix that eventually, as X11 continues to go the way of AM radio, but I am pleased with my new setup.
I heard Bob is coming back in windows 13.
Tue Aug 27 2024 09:32:19 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
My needs are pretty simple. And I do like my computer to look like a computer, not like a phone or a tablet, or whatever a Mac is these days :)