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[#] Sat Apr 02 2022 17:34:40 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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You're right, of course, which is why you could totally follow the development of WebCit-NG.   When you look at the current Webcit it's useful but it's quirky, and people can't quite figure out what it wants to be.  WebCit-NG is being organized as a set of applications that sit on a common framework, instead of a connected series of rooms that all do different things.

For example, "Forums" is one of those applications.  When you are in that part of the system, you are going to get a very traditional looking set of web forums.  This will be familiar to people who are used to phpBB or vBulletin or whatever.

If you move to the "Mail" application it will look more like a webmail system.    Likewise for Calendars, Wikis, Blogs, etc.

This is a pretty big change, but I'm coming to the conclusion that "Rooms" only makes sense in text mode, which is where the old Citadel afficionados are hanging out anyway.  There's also the possibility of a lightweight WebCit alternative that follows the text client's layout more closely, and doesn't use JavaScript or DHTML5.

Obviously we would love to have more people participating in the development effort.  Anyone who is decent with web development, JavaScript, and ideally the W3.CSS framework is welcome.



[#] Sun Apr 03 2022 02:12:59 EDT from smashbot64

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Sat Apr 02 2022 17:34:40 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

You're right, of course, which is why you could totally follow the development of WebCit-NG.   When you look at the current Webcit it's useful but it's quirky, and people can't quite figure out what it wants to be.  WebCit-NG is being organized as a set of applications that sit on a common framework, instead of a connected series of rooms that all do different things.

For example, "Forums" is one of those applications.  When you are in that part of the system, you are going to get a very traditional looking set of web forums.  This will be familiar to people who are used to phpBB or vBulletin or whatever.

If you move to the "Mail" application it will look more like a webmail system.    Likewise for Calendars, Wikis, Blogs, etc.

This is a pretty big change, but I'm coming to the conclusion that "Rooms" only makes sense in text mode, which is where the old Citadel afficionados are hanging out anyway.  There's also the possibility of a lightweight WebCit alternative that follows the text client's layout more closely, and doesn't use JavaScript or DHTML5.

Obviously we would love to have more people participating in the development effort.  Anyone who is decent with web development, JavaScript, and ideally the W3.CSS framework is welcome.



I have all the aforementioned skills, most of them clunky and wonky. I was the head of development that everyone one the software side hated because I came back with human elements that the dumb public wanted. Software must be "useful". Lemme tell you lil about that.  The problem I see is our (I am on your side) team is faced with is that we have now come full circle. What once we did as a hobby with parents yelling at us is now an industry, and we are the leaders of such. That's an accidental incidental.

If I havent aged out, I can report this: the human input buffer is so much smaller, it is probably at record lows. I have a teenage daughter that passed the tcp/ip test at age 10. Thanks to the "net" being in her hands 24/7 her attention span is that of a gnat.  Fast forward, The content that is in their face is engineered and dynamic.  The game is instant gratification. So, in short, citadel needs to be mutillingual, USA ada compliant and like most distro installs Everything to Everyone, but the features need to be idiot proof. Pretend you are, for the first time, showing a monkey how to use tools for nose picking.

To give you a real world idea of how in my opinion devel should be designed for the current world audience, go to any McDonalds and order a whole bunch of stuff. When it comes to the total what you have to pay part, change everything you asked for. CHAOS. Humanity folds.

I could have just given you a java hint on code I found to be redundant, however I felt that directing focus to children are our future (intentional) was in order.

 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 17:12:52 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Linux... running a BBS that is public faced - running an email server that is public faced - is too dangerous to be a hit install.exe and click yes kind of option for casual users of "evil empire" OSes. 

Running on Linux is a great barrier to entry. The support nightmares of making it easily accessible to those kind of platforms would be HUGE. 

I mean, as Linux becomes more accessible, the Citadel Support group kind of illustrates that this is a growing problem even with Linux in the way playing interference. I see some questions in that room that indicate the people who are finding the easy install and getting it done actually don't know *anything* about Linux itself. I'm barely fluent - and I can see that.  If Citadel supported other platforms - the volume of that kind of thing would increase exponentially - all of them upset because they don't understand how to open ports, secure public IPs, handle DHCP, configure DNS - things that are pre-requisites to running a home server that is accessible on the public net. They would hold Ig responsible for "not making Citadel work right," when Citadel simply works within the parameters of how the larger TCP/IP network works in this regard. 

I mean - you would have to be a billion dollar company like Synology and basically have the Citadel check in and publish through THEIR server front ends, and all traffic directed to them - to do it that way. That is how Synology handles making their NAS devices "consumer public network accessible". The NAS checks in with their datacenter - their datacenter handles incoming requests and redirects via its database to the device. If you know what you're doing, you can avoid this and go direct - but most consumers that have their NAS publicly accessible are simply registering with Synology - and the Synology has agents that take care of most aspects of making that work. You might have to do some basic configuration of your firewall or router - but they've got dead simple instructions on that - and STILL people can't get that much right. 

 




Sat Apr 02 2022 01:39:03 EDT from smashbot64

 

I guess a fork is reasonable? One limitation I see is the software is not easily integrated with the ways of the evil empires.

 

 



 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 18:03:32 EDT from Nurb432

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Doesn't docker run on windows now? I thought it did....

If so, its a simple pull.  No Linux knowledge needed ( well you SHOULD ) but not really needed to get it running.



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 18:45:42 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I don't know. Does Docker run SIMPLY on Windows? 

A lot of times, things that migrate from *nix to Windows don't really catch on with Windows - for whatever reason. I think often because install, setup and configuration tends to still be too "Linux-ey" for Windows users. 

I mean, a few years back there was a lot of FOSS buzz about LAMP and WAMP... 

Linux, Apache... um... M... and Python, right... LAMP... 
And WAMP was the Windows, Apache, MySQL and Python... 

But among Windows circles - I don't think WAMP ever had much impact. LAMP users don't want WAMP... and Windows users tend to stick to the corporate alternatives that are closed source. 

I can see Docker facing similar obstacles in the Windows space. In that case, Citadel wouldn't be the challenge, Linux wouldn't be the challenge... DOCKER itself becomes the challenge. It is this extra step that may be difficult for Windows users to gronk, even though it seems simple and obvious to those used to the concept in Linux spaces. 

 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 18:59:06 EDT from Nurb432

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You are going to make me try aren't you?  Ill try it this weekend if i get a chance, and try to think as an 'above average' windows user. Not a newbie, not a advanced user, but understanding a little more than the basics. 



[#] Wed Apr 13 2022 08:45:58 EDT from Harry G. Coin <hcoin@quietfountain.com> to room_CitaNews@uncensored.citadel.org

Subject: Re: [CitaNews] (null)

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Windows users accept virtual machines, and that's the place to run
anything Linux.  What happens, over time, is Windows is put in the
virtual machine on a Linux host. Mostly because people get tired of
'please wait' and 'reboot' so often.

On 4/12/22 17:45, ParanoidDelusions wrote:

I don't know. Does Docker run SIMPLY on Windows?

A lot of times, things that migrate from *nix to Windows don't really
catch on with Windows - for whatever reason. I think often because
install, setup and configuration tends to still be too "Linux-ey" for
Windows users.

I mean, a few years back there was a lot of FOSS buzz about LAMP and
WAMP...

Linux, Apache... um... M... and Python, right... LAMP...
And WAMP was the Windows, Apache, MySQL and Python...

But among Windows circles - I don't think WAMP ever had much impact.
LAMP users don't want WAMP... and Windows users tend to stick to the
corporate alternatives that are closed source.

I can see Docker facing similar obstacles in the Windows space. In
that case, Citadel wouldn't be the challenge, Linux wouldn't be the
challenge... DOCKER itself becomes the challenge. It is this extra
step that may be difficult for Windows users to gronk, even though it
seems simple and obvious to those used to the concept in Linux spaces.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 18:25:22 EDT from Nurb432

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Well both success and failure.

  • Docker for windows requires WSL. I didnt expect that and honestly thought perhaps they ported docker to windows native... but i guess i should have known better.
  • Installing WSL is a single command and not a lot of parameters to type.. so an above basic windows person could do that. ( all they need to do is know how to get to an admin powershell prompt, and type..)
  • Installing docker, traditional windows download/installer.  No big deal there.
  • run the commands to pull/start the citadel image.. still within reason. Just following direction "get a powershell prompt like you did before, and type this" no real understanding needed, yet. 
  • The citadel image started ok. Services appear to start from the messages in the console.

Then comes the problem

  • Cant access web-cit. I suspect a network configuration or some sort of WSL firewall issue of some sort. i'm sure fixable but that defeats the purpose of the test so i didnt bother looking at it. It needed to be "click install, type a couple of simple things listed in the instructions, and poof its running".  Almost got there.
 
Tue Apr 12 2022 06:59:06 PM EDT from Nurb432

You are going to make me try aren't you?  Ill try it this weekend if i get a chance, and try to think as an 'above average' windows user. Not a newbie, not a advanced user, but understanding a little more than the basics. 



 



[#] Sat Apr 23 2022 15:15:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I could have saved you the trouble. I am running Docker on my windows desktop at work, and although it has a couple of different operating modes, at the end of the day it requires a Linux kerenel. Even though there is such a thing as Windows containers, nobody is using them. My point of reference is a large number of enterprise shops who run stuff in our data centers. When they transition their applications to "cloud native" they are also porting them to Linux, because 99% of the time, running containers means running Linux containers.

(Shout out to the folks who have been running FreeBSD Jails for decades and wondering why no one noticed.)

I don't want to get too much into the weeds here because this forum is really for Citadel-related announcements, but most of the time when you see something announced as a "Docker container" it's really an OCI container; you can run it on Docker or Kubernetes or OpenShift or any of the other container runtimes.
And if the runtime's host operating system is not Linux, there's going to be an emulated or paravirtualized Linux kernel in there somewhere. Uncoincidentaly, that's why Kubernetes runs faster on AWS and GCS than it does on Azure.

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