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[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 19:39:45 EST from Nurb432

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:)

Sat Mar 05 2022 05:38:30 PM EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Not sure what you think you're getting at here. Microsoft is bad, Microsoft products are crap, and if you disagree, you're wrong. This is really simple and not difficult to understand.

 



[#] Mon Mar 07 2022 00:02:18 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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"Spongebob Nobody Cares" T-shirt by kirkdstevens | Redbubble

Sat Mar 05 2022 13:55:24 EST from Nurb432

nah, just like android, underneath there is quite a bit of Linux. A browser isn't going to manage your hardware.

 


 



[#] Mon Mar 07 2022 00:05:22 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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You understand this, right? It could be DR-DOS, or CP/M, or GEM/TOS, or OS/2. 

They're appliances. No one gives a shit if it is Linux or Windows or any other OS under their appliance. Linux won by *not actually being relevant* to the end user experience. 

 



[#] Mon Mar 07 2022 10:20:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Just like MS-DOS and Windows won by being forced onto the users *despite* a shitty user experience.

[#] Wed Mar 09 2022 01:22:47 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Again, the user experience that end-users actually love is not any Linux based Java or Web Browser based VM host (Android/ChromeOS). People generally have the same kind of complaints about Android and ChromeOS that they had about Windows. Shitty user experiences. 

No... FreeBSD seems to have won the day there... oddly enough, it seems to be the most popular OS framework with developers and other SQLMonkey/Developer types too... that is OS X. 

End users who are bought into the Apple ecosystem *love* it. Roughly half the developers I meet prefer it to Linux or Microsoft frameworks... with the remaining split about 60/40 for Linux. 

But in user-space... Linux, raw Linux - exposed Linux - is still HUGELY unpopular. 

Cuz... the USER in experience sucks BALLS. It is the same reason DAZ3D is hugely popular and Blender isn't, despite Blender being a far more powerful CGI platform. Blender has a Mt. Everest Steep learning curve - it is almost vertical right from the start. Once you get the hang of it, sure - it can do all kinds of things DAZ3D can never do. 

Most people would rather it be immediately easy and do the things they WANT. Photoshop suffers this same problem. So does Illustrator. You can work miracles in these programs, if you work with them 8 hours a day for several years straight and invest countless hours in their study and mastery. 

Normal people don't want to do that. Propellerheads love that shit, which is why Linux is *still* the Neckbeard OS of choice. 

 


Mon Mar 07 2022 10:20:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Just like MS-DOS and Windows won by being forced onto the users *despite* a shitty user experience.

 



[#] Wed Mar 09 2022 01:37:42 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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"A job requirement". 

One that no other solution can provide. 

That incumbent momentum is hard to stand fast against. 

And it isn't what YOU want - it is what EVERYBODY else wants. 
*mic drop*


Sat Mar 05 2022 12:56:13 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
That incumbent momentum is hard to stand fast against. 

It is. Even when literally EVERYONE else has a better product.

 



[#] Wed Mar 09 2022 17:59:42 EST from Nurb432

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Not 100% true that no other solution can do it, but it would require re-engineering the back end of the product i currently support. The same 'service' we offer can ( and is ) be provided with other tech that is not in bed with Microsoft, but its what we purchased, and i support it in my current position. Resistance to change prevents it today, but In 5 years ? Who knows, but i wont care by then as it will be my replacement's problem. 

Wed Mar 09 2022 01:37:42 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions


One that no other solution can provide. 

 



 



[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 09:09:16 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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And it isn't what YOU want - it is what EVERYBODY else wants. 
*mic drop*

It's what everybody else feels they have no choice about.

FTFY. And now your mic is broken.

[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 11:49:58 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I mean - sure... and some places do decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater to get off Microsoft's tit - and it has become easier to achieve over the last 10 or 15 years. 

And it is possible that we'll see radical changes in computing paradigms that will make all the legacy OSes largely irrelevant. The framework of those technologies may be an evolution of frameworks already in place - Linux is a very popular contender... 


But - THIS era of computing and computing interfaces - Microsoft dominated - and it is unlikely to change - especially at the corporate level - before something else comes along and makes all of this current paradigm as relevant as an IBM selectric electric typewriter is to society *today*. 

Linux fundamentally lost. It doesn't *really* matter if it was Microsoft playing dirty pool and the Linux/FOSS community never coming up with an effective counter-strategy, or if it was because Microsoft made apps with user *experience* in mind while FOSS ideology focused on security and powerful but difficult to master features, or if it is a combination of those and other factors. 


Linux is only popular when end users are not exposed to the Linux-ness of it, and the most popular Linux platforms do this by either riding a Java VM on top of it or by making the majority of things happen in a web-browser. Which isn't exactly a success for *Linux*. 




Wed Mar 09 2022 17:59:42 EST from Nurb432

Not 100% true that no other solution can do it, but it would require re-engineering the back end of the product i currently support. The same 'service' we offer can ( and is ) be provided with other tech that is not in bed with Microsoft, but its what we purchased, and i support it in my current position. Resistance to change prevents it today, but In 5 years ? Who knows, but i wont care by then as it will be my replacement's problem. 

Wed Mar 09 2022 01:37:42 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions

 



[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 14:34:50 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Linux fundamentally lost. It doesn't *really* matter if it was
Microsoft playing dirty pool and the Linux/FOSS community never

It matters because you were arguing that Microsoft dominated because they had the best available products. They didn't have the best products. They played, as you correctly point out, dirty pool, and then continued leveraging network effects. Windows as a desktop environment was completely unusable until 2009 or so, and by then the network effect had long since blocked any real competition.

It's also disingenuous to consider the entire open source community to be a single entity. Our software is used by thousands of different organizations, some of which are multi billion dollar companies, each with its own product line and its own objectives, some of which are worth tens of billions of dollars.
If that's losing, then I'd like to lose please.

Apple and Digital Research beat IBM by making the mainframe irrelevant. Open source is beating Microsoft by making the desktop irrelevant. Today, IBM still dominates in mainframes, and Microsoft still dominates in desktop, again because of long-lasting network effects, not because either one ever had the best product.

If you want to know how successful Microsoft would be if they weren't cheating ... one need only look to Windows Phone.

[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 16:46:05 EST from Nurb432

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And in related news, i heard they pretty much killed any future for vb.net   "its still there, for now, but nothing new for it, have a nice day"



[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 16:52:46 EST from Nurb432

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It wouldn't be that severe, and there are other non-Microsoft products that do what i support. Getting a new solution would actually be trivial.

Its that we have all our business processes tied into the thing is why we stick with what we have.  Aside from the architecture, the system sucks now. Badly.  In the past it wasn't so bad, but now it is.   But due to cost of change, we are still using it. Sure, all our processes can be modified too, but there is still a cost involved ( both $ and time ). Oh and we are also on maintenance pricing now, replatforming id estimate about 2 million or so upfront just for the retail price of a new package. 

But technically, alternatives exist, and other companies use them.

 

Thu Mar 10 2022 11:49:58 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions

I mean - sure... and some places do decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater to get off Microsoft's tit - and it has become easier to achieve over the last 10 or 15 years. 




[#] Thu Mar 10 2022 16:55:27 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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No... you're making straw man. 

I said Microsoft BEST UNDERSTOOD the consumer desires and made their shit easy to use to do MOST of what people wanted to achieve - that they focused on USER experience to the detriment of security and reliability, and that Linux failed because it was dominated by people who do not understand that TECHNICALLY better isn't superior if average people give up before they master it. 


As typical with Linux arguments - you're all over the place and mostly in denial - and when you get cornered, you'll rephrase what your opposition is saying. This all started with a conversation about how Linux is favored with developers who also like to be BOFH types and tell the Lusers, with open contempt, to RTFM. How they design things the way they see as logical and rational - but usually not user-friendly at all. Blender can do amazing things - being user friendly has only RECENTLY become a criteria they even consider. GIMP is the same way. Powerful, with shitty user interfaces - that should be the rallying call of the Linux/FOSS community. 

And it is why you'll never *win* the market. Maybe *segments* of it will put up with the pain - especially those hungry against huge competitors and desperate to try anything. 


Most places that are comfortable DGAF. 

Open source didn't make the desktop irrelevant. That is bullshit, too. The onward march of technology is moving beyond the desktop as a user interface, seemingly. It is kind of like when the Democrats got Obama into office and predicted a irreversible Leftward shift of the US Electorate. When Mobile devices and tablets took off, everyone was predicting the demise of the desktop... everyone who dislikes Microsoft anyhow. Then we got past Obama and Mobile Appliances - and got Trump and Microsoft and Intel returning a focus on the traditional desktop/laptop paradigm. Not yet, pal. We're not a majority Left Leaning country - and FOSS has YET to "beat" Microsoft - and I'm letting you get away with that one... the argument was that LINUX would beat Microsoft. But if FOSS beat Microsoft, it beat Linux and OS X too. If it does... if it ends up the foundation for whatever comes after desktop OSes - then Linux is OUT, too. There will never be a Year of the Linux Desktop where Linux ITSELF is the preferred operating system interface for end users. Again, I say this over and over - it might be something that rides on TOP of Linux... but all Linux is in that case is the ignored, inconsequential Cinderella of the 7 layer model. Locked in a tower where no one has to see it, cleaning the house while everyone else gets to go to the ball. There is no fairy godmother for Linux. It is the Ugly Duckling of technology, but the Brother's Grimm version that teaches a REAL lesson about life, instead of an idealized Disney version where everyone lives happily ever after. Linux is ugly and gets locked in the tower and scrubs floors. That is where it belongs. 






Thu Mar 10 2022 14:34:50 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Linux fundamentally lost. It doesn't *really* matter if it was
Microsoft playing dirty pool and the Linux/FOSS community never

It matters because you were arguing that Microsoft dominated because they had the best available products. They didn't have the best products. They played, as you correctly point out, dirty pool, and then continued leveraging network effects. Windows as a desktop environment was completely unusable until 2009 or so, and by then the network effect had long since blocked any real competition.

It's also disingenuous to consider the entire open source community to be a single entity. Our software is used by thousands of different organizations, some of which are multi billion dollar companies, each with its own product line and its own objectives, some of which are worth tens of billions of dollars.
If that's losing, then I'd like to lose please.

Apple and Digital Research beat IBM by making the mainframe irrelevant. Open source is beating Microsoft by making the desktop irrelevant. Today, IBM still dominates in mainframes, and Microsoft still dominates in desktop, again because of long-lasting network effects, not because either one ever had the best product.

If you want to know how successful Microsoft would be if they weren't cheating ... one need only look to Windows Phone.

 



[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 13:32:20 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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I said Microsoft BEST UNDERSTOOD the consumer desires and made their
shit easy to use to do MOST of what people wanted to achieve - that

Wrong again. If it was all about the best user experience and nothing else, we would all have Amigas on our desks right now.

Microsoft captured the market by lying, cheating, and stealing. Period.
The fact that they eventually made their products tolerable enough for most users is a DISTANT side effect.

[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 13:45:06 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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And it is why you'll never *win* the market. Maybe *segments* of it
will put up with the pain - especially those hungry against huge

It's the other way around, actually. The increasingly irrelevant desktop is the only place where Microsoft still holds a commanding market dominance.
The rest of the industry has moved on.

There's this thing called the cloud, maybe you've heard of it. It runs on Linux and open source.
\

[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 15:23:24 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Somebody needs to invent an emoticon for jerking off. 

Fri Mar 11 2022 13:45:06 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
And it is why you'll never *win* the market. Maybe *segments* of it
will put up with the pain - especially those hungry against huge

It's the other way around, actually. The increasingly irrelevant desktop is the only place where Microsoft still holds a commanding market dominance.
The rest of the industry has moved on.

There's this thing called the cloud, maybe you've heard of it. It runs on Linux and open source.
\

 



[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 15:25:27 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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The Amiga is a great example of technically superior on paper - but failed to deliver what the market *wanted*, allowing someone else with a technically inferior product, but better marketing, distribution, and delivery of market demands to eat their lunch. 

It is *exactly* what people like yourself continually fail to comprehend. It is why you code and develop. It is exactly what I've been saying - you do not understand the human element of success. 

 

Fri Mar 11 2022 13:32:20 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
I said Microsoft BEST UNDERSTOOD the consumer desires and made their
shit easy to use to do MOST of what people wanted to achieve - that

Wrong again. If it was all about the best user experience and nothing else, we would all have Amigas on our desks right now.

Microsoft captured the market by lying, cheating, and stealing. Period.
The fact that they eventually made their products tolerable enough for most users is a DISTANT side effect.

 



[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 15:29:19 EST from Nurb432

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That is because the ST and TOS/GEM was so much better

 

/me ducks :) 

Fri Mar 11 2022 03:25:27 PM EST from ParanoidDelusions

The Amiga is a great example of technically superior on paper - but failed to deliver what the market *wanted*, allowing someone else with a technically inferior product, but better marketing, distribution, and delivery of market demands to eat their lunch. 

I



[#] Fri Mar 11 2022 19:18:00 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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It is *exactly* what people like yourself continually fail to
comprehend. It is why you code and develop. It is exactly what I've
been saying - you do not understand the human element of success. 

Actually, I'm now understanding why bees don't waste their time explaining to flies why honey is better than shit.

Enjoy your shit.

[#] Sun Mar 13 2022 11:49:06 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Actually, without a doubt, in a world of bees and honey and flies and shit... 


Linux is clearly where the flies swarm. 

 

Fri Mar 11 2022 19:18:00 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
It is *exactly* what people like yourself continually fail to
comprehend. It is why you code and develop. It is exactly what I've
been saying - you do not understand the human element of success. 

Actually, I'm now understanding why bees don't waste their time explaining to flies why honey is better than shit.

Enjoy your shit.

 



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