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[#] Wed Mar 02 2022 15:25:09 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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The thing is... I remember OS/2 and OS/2 Warp. I used to sell... or try to sell it. The ONE guy I knew who was all gung-ho into it and certain it was the future and the alternative to Microsoft's evil empire... 

Ended up being a die-hard Linux geek. Whatever superior technology he picked... he also didn't like IOMEGA because the alternative, those little clear yellow removable disks - were better on paper, as far as tech specs... whatever he picked, FAILED in consumer markets. If he picked something, you could be certain it was the best technology, and that mass consumers would NEVER accept it. 

Often, because of disregard for backward compatibility, convenience, and consumer oriented features. 

And the guys like you STILL don't get it right. It took Apple to find a middle ground between Microsoft and Intel's - "Make it consumer friendly," and FOSS/*nix "Fuck the Luser, make it stable and secure" dichotomies. 


Apple went, "make it appliance like for the end users, make it powerful and *nix based for developers, coders and propeller heads... support the end users like you're a servant waiting on royalty, and screw the propeller heads - they can do what they want, but if the break it, they can figure out the fix for it themselves...." 

Not a bad strategy, and one that brought them back from the brink of the Technology Company Graveyard. 


Microsoft had to make a lot of their decisions, and so did Intel, because at that time, maintaining highly compatible backwards x86 capabilities were HUGE drivers to consumers. Sure... it wasn't as important as perceived... people were shifting on x86 from Word Perfect to Works, to Word... from Peachtree and Lotus 123 to Money and Excel... If you could move them from the software platform, you could have moved them from the OS platform and hardware platform too... but there was never a clear time when that was practical across all users as a sudden transition. Some users were still hanging onto Lotus 123, or Printshop, or whatever app mattered to them, even as others were migrating forward... and some where in between... Wordstar didn't matter to them anymore, but Lotus 123 did... And the solutions for virtualizing and emulating x86 back at that point on alternative platforms were inconsistent, unreliable, buggy and expensive. Also, if you were incumbent and lost your momentum with a bad decision that allowed people to jump ship... you ended up as Atari or Commodore or TI or Radio Shack or Osbourne or... There was a lot of risk in being super innovative and trying to go your own way and the risk was amplified if you were the market leader. 

The 4 cornerstones of an IT department are basically Desktop Support, System Engineering, Networking, and Development (including DBA roles). Generally this is how they're divided departmentally - and in a hierarchy - they tend to be in this order. The developers, likewise, are usually the MOST out of touch with the desires and experiences of the end users. There is also something in the character or personality about wanting to sit down and talk in the language of COMPUTERS all day... the logic, binary driven thought - that makes developers/programmers/coders terrible about understanding the REALITIES of the importance of doing things, even if illogical, in the way that end users WANT. The whole BOFH thing is a manifestation and kind of admission of this truth. "Screw the user's desires, they're stupid. I've made it the way it is BEST. What they want is STUPID." 

It doesn't work. Microsoft recognized this to a certain degree - and focused on a very consumer oriented approach to giving them EXACTLY what they wanted... even when the users were WRONG and the developers were right (which isn't all the time, or even frequently, but is often important when it IS the case...) 


Apple realized that there was some truth in the BOFH approach, but it needed to be marketed so that it wasn't "Do it our way, because you're too stupid and the way you want will cause problems..." 


but instead... "Look at what we did for you, that is going to make your life easier," while hiding, "We made your life easier by preventing you from doing what you WANT to do that is BAD for you..." 


Linux, FOSS... all that shit, stuck to the, "No, you're stupid and we're doing it this way, and you just need to RTFM and figure out why it is better to do it our way, even if your feeble human jelly brain can't understand that logic." 


Seriously. Hate on MS all you want... but it was the mass consumer market that had the most influence in most of their decisions you hate. They were just giving the public what the public demanded, because they weren't smart enough to figure out how to put an Apple spin on YOUR ideology of Do It Our Way Our Get Lost. 







[#] Wed Mar 02 2022 17:10:39 EST from Nurb432

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I have to disagree to an extent. They forced their way into a virtual monopoly and gave the public what they wanted to give them.  Customer be damned  you get what we feed you, and you cant ( realistically ) go elsewhere..  And when you are the only game in town, you get to do that.

If it wasn't them, it may have been someone else. Wold they be worse? Better? Who knows, as it didnt happen that way.   But if someone had offed bill when we had the chance, it would have been different. 

I also think that regardless of how it went, the free-society woudl still form.  It was brewing long before micro crap screwed us all.  Perhaps it would have taken longer, or even faster.. again, .who knows..  Unlike Gates, someone like Gary or Woz actually supported openness, so might have got "here" sooner..

Wed Mar 02 2022 03:25:09 PM EST from ParanoidDelusions



Seriously. Hate on MS all you want... but it was the mass consumer market that had the most influence in most of their decisions you hate. They were just giving the public what the public demanded, because they weren't smart enough to figure out how to put an Apple spin on YOUR ideology of Do It Our Way Our Get Lost. 







 



[#] Wed Mar 02 2022 19:28:06 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I'm talking about the philosophy of the design. They were keenly interested in consumer feedback as a company - and that is what influenced their approach to "least restrictive permissions" for security that later became an issue for them. They figured, "make it wide open by default so that home users and desktop users have no hassles, and let the professionals lock what needs to be locked down..." 

Which is actually a logical approach. Consumers shouldn't have to learn advanced security concepts to run a PC... and back then - it actually did work pretty well. Always on connectivity changed the playing field for that - though. At one point, Microsoft's "security through obscurity" method *was* appropriate... "Out of the millions of people connected through a DHCP lease at any given time, even if your system isn't secure, the MAJORITY of you won't get hit for any vulnerabilities." It is kind of a schooling fish approach to predators. "Sure, some of the fish on the outside are going to die - but MOST of the fish will escape." 

But then the predators figured out how to start drag-netting - and all the fish were rolled up into a big ball... making it easier to get them ALL. 

Wow, that is such an incredible analogy. *patting myself on the back* 


I suppose you could argue it is just another version of Apple's "Give them what YOU want to give them," approach - but Microsoft early on - the advantage was it was far more powerful for the power user. Keep in mind, in the earliest timeframes we're talking about... Mac OS was *CLASSIC*... and not OS 9... we're talking 6 and 7. Primitive shit that was absolutely locked down. 

They had a monopoly - arguably - but they were keenly aware of other tech companies who seemed invincible and were irrelevant within a few short years of pissing off their consumer base, before them. 

Wed Mar 02 2022 17:10:39 EST from Nurb432

I have to disagree to an extent. They forced their way into a virtual monopoly and gave the public what they wanted to give them.  Customer be damned  you get what we feed you, and you cant ( realistically ) go elsewhere..  And when you are the only game in town, you get to do that.

If it wasn't them, it may have been someone else. Wold they be worse? Better? Who knows, as it didnt happen that way.   But if someone had offed bill when we had the chance, it would have been different. 

I also think that regardless of how it went, the free-society woudl still form.  It was brewing long before micro crap screwed us all.  Perhaps it would have taken longer, or even faster.. again, .who knows..  Unlike Gates, someone like Gary or Woz actually supported openness, so might have got "here" sooner..

Wed Mar 02 2022 03:25:09 PM EST from ParanoidDelusions



Seriously. Hate on MS all you want... but it was the mass consumer market that had the most influence in most of their decisions you hate. They were just giving the public what the public demanded, because they weren't smart enough to figure out how to put an Apple spin on YOUR ideology of Do It Our Way Our Get Lost. 







 



 



[#] Thu Mar 03 2022 09:37:21 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Yeah, those consumers just LOVED having to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS all the time just to get a few extra hours of uptime before their next crash.
The truth is, Microsoft captured the market *despite* having good technology, not *because* of it. Their success in the market is because of *business decisions*, many of which were illegal and predatory, not because they had the best products. Seriously, when was the last time a desktop user actuall felt they had a choice? For that matter, when was the last time they even *knew* they had a choice?

Microsoft had the best software in the same way that Al Capone had the best liquor supply chain.

[#] Thu Mar 03 2022 13:42:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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What are you talking about. By definition, consumers weren't editing autoexec.bat and config.sys to get extra uptime. The guys doing that kind of thing in Autoexec and Config were ALREADY on their way to "prosumer" level and going to end up in the industry... and hell... the people doing what YOU'RE talking about - were taking their first fledging steps toward becoming SCRIPTERS.



Most consumers, if they went into their autoexec and config.sys at all... were adding a mouse driver, or following a card that told them how to set their IRQ on their new modem, or how to add himem sys for a video game they wanted to play. 


This is basically EXACTLY what I mean, and what I've been saying. You've got this warped, developer/coder level view of what the AVERAGE and typical experience was - and it has absolutely no bearing on the reality.  

YOU did this. YOU were trying to figure out how to maximize uptime between BSODs by really TWEAKING your autoexec.bat and config.sys - and you became frustrated with the limitations of the ability of scripting your own solutions in MS/DOS... which is why you moved on to Linux. 

Most people hired someone ELSE to come and just follow the little insert card to set up the game... a kid who was the "local PC consultant" in their neighborhood and did setup for $20 an hour while putting himself through JC. And they didn't even *think* that they could improve stability by adding lines in those files. You're basically proving my thesis at the start about developers. You live in this world where you think EVERYONE is interacting with their machines the way you do... when the truth is, hardly ANYONE interacts with them the way you do. 






Thu Mar 03 2022 09:37:21 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Yeah, those consumers just LOVED having to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS all the time just to get a few extra hours of uptime before their next crash.
The truth is, Microsoft captured the market *despite* having good technology, not *because* of it. Their success in the market is because of *business decisions*, many of which were illegal and predatory, not because they had the best products. Seriously, when was the last time a desktop user actuall felt they had a choice? For that matter, when was the last time they even *knew* they had a choice?

Microsoft had the best software in the same way that Al Capone had the best liquor supply chain.

 



[#] Thu Mar 03 2022 13:46:42 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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The guys who would edit a config.sys and autoexec.bat expressly to make their machine more stable... 

Became the Linux guys who do a Linux build, set up all their monitors and gauges and beautiful background and carefully organized desktop, fine tuned and post screen shots of it on the Internet. 


It is like custom car modding. BUILDING it is more fun for these people than DRIVING it. Customizing it and tuning it and making it PERFECT for them... they're NEVER happy, either - they constantly want to do THAT again... and find some way of improving it. It is a LOT like car modding in this sense... 

Because doing the BUILD is the endorphin rush for you guys. 

Most people want to get that shit out of the way and just do the THING... drive the car, play the game, visit the website... 

You want to make it so that doing the thing is BETTER for yourself than for anyone else who just gets on their PC and loads an app, or gets in their car and goes out to drive. 

And those guys - yeah... they were the 2% of the market that Linux represented at this point in time we are talking about. 

 



[#] Thu Mar 03 2022 17:22:35 EST from Nurb432

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I cant count the number of times that drivers f-ed a windows install.  It was a constant headache.  How many times an upgrade killed a system and you had to redo it from scratch.  It wasn't just the 'tech types' that felt pain.

 

 



[#] Fri Mar 04 2022 13:38:18 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Wow PD, 1998 called and it wants its Microsoft apologetics back. You know why I'm here right now? I'm taking a break from work because I just had Microsoft Office running on Microsoft 365 with a Microsoft Edge browser LOCK THE FUCK UP on me. You know why? Because as an ultra-technical user I had the uber-hacker audacity to ADD A FOOTNOTE to a document. I hit "footnote", started typing in the little box on the bottom, and when I got to the end of the line, the whole thing locked up. It went into an active loop that wouldn't go away until I clicked "end pages" and switched it to a sad tab.

Microsoft dominated the market. No one is arguing that. But it takes serious brain damage to think that they dominated the market by having superior products.
They didn't, they don't, and they all need to die in a car fire.

[#] Fri Mar 04 2022 14:18:59 EST from Nurb432

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A real one.. :) 

Fri Mar 04 2022 01:38:18 PM EST from IGnatius T Foobar
they all need to die in a car fire.

 



[#] Fri Mar 04 2022 15:26:02 EST from Nurb432

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Not really a 'desire' but a job requirement.   It has a feature i need to do my job, that web outlook does not have. So i'm stuck.

Same reason i'm even using windows at all at the office, a couple of items that my job requires.  Tried to get around it several times, but too many hurdles i cant get past.

Mon Feb 28 2022 04:53:32 PM EST from ParanoidDelusions

I find it somewhat amusing that most of the private industry I've deal with in the last 10 years has moved to Google Office... by a significant margin. 

And yet you're stuck with a specific desire to have local MS Office clients installed - despite - you know... being on team Fuck Microsoft. :) 

 

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 01:40:58 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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2% of the market. Ever. 

If not for Android - it would still be 2%.

End users *hate* Linux. 

 

Fri Mar 04 2022 13:38:18 EST from IGnatius T Foobar
Wow PD, 1998 called and it wants its Microsoft apologetics back. You know why I'm here right now? I'm taking a break from work because I just had Microsoft Office running on Microsoft 365 with a Microsoft Edge browser LOCK THE FUCK UP on me. You know why? Because as an ultra-technical user I had the uber-hacker audacity to ADD A FOOTNOTE to a document. I hit "footnote", started typing in the little box on the bottom, and when I got to the end of the line, the whole thing locked up. It went into an active loop that wouldn't go away until I clicked "end pages" and switched it to a sad tab.

Microsoft dominated the market. No one is arguing that. But it takes serious brain damage to think that they dominated the market by having superior products.
They didn't, they don't, and they all need to die in a car fire.

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 01:42:16 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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The only time end users like Linux is when you hide it beneath a JAVA Virtual machine. 


That is how bad Linux sucks from the perspective of User Space. 


Everyone knows it. 

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 01:49:43 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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But this is exactly what I keep saying... 

"A job requirement". 

One that no other solution can provide. 

That incumbent momentum is hard to stand fast against. 

And it isn't what YOU want - it is what EVERYBODY else wants. 

It isn't "shilling"... it is simply pointing out the obvious. 


Fri Mar 04 2022 15:26:02 EST from Nurb432

Not really a 'desire' but a job requirement.   It has a feature i need to do my job, that web outlook does not have. So i'm stuck.

Same reason i'm even using windows at all at the office, a couple of items that my job requires.  Tried to get around it several times, but too many hurdles i cant get past.

Mon Feb 28 2022 04:53:32 PM EST from ParanoidDelusions

I find it somewhat amusing that most of the private industry I've deal with in the last 10 years has moved to Google Office... by a significant margin. 

And yet you're stuck with a specific desire to have local MS Office clients installed - despite - you know... being on team Fuck Microsoft. :) 

 

 



 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 08:12:25 EST from Nurb432

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I donno, i have yet to find a 'regular' person really dislike ChromeOS and there are a lot more of those out there than people realize. So many more its sort of scary actually. 

Sat Mar 05 2022 01:40:58 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions

End users *hate* Linux. 

 

 


[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 12:44:42 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Hundreds of millions of Android users beg to differ. There's a reason that neither Google nor Apple based their mobile operating systems on Windows: it's because Windows sucks.

No one has ever chosen Windows because they believed they liked it the best.
100% of the time they were railroaded into it one way or another.

If Micro$oft really felt it had the superior product then they wouldn't have had to threaten computer manufacturers with concrete shoes if they dared to bundle other operating systems with their computers.

Let me summarize it for you:

Microsoft = Bad.

It's a pretty simple equation, with immutables on either side. If you come to any other conclusion, you're either using bad data, or you're wrong, or you're lying. There's really no wiggle room on this.

[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 12:56:13 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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That incumbent momentum is hard to stand fast against. 

It is. Even when literally EVERYONE else has a better product.

[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 13:48:48 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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There is no LINUX to ChromeOS - it is a web browser. You've basically proven my point. 

Otherwise - why would they choose ChromeOS? Linux *only* is commercially accepted on appliances where the end user doesn't have to see or know shit about Linux. They would just install Debian or Ubuntu on some old machine. 

Same net result - but - you've got to deal with LINUX then. 

 

Sat Mar 05 2022 08:12:25 EST from Nurb432

I donno, i have yet to find a 'regular' person really dislike ChromeOS and there are a lot more of those out there than people realize. So many more its sort of scary actually. 

Sat Mar 05 2022 01:40:58 AM EST from ParanoidDelusions

End users *hate* Linux. 

 

 


 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 13:49:37 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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The Android example is *the same thing*. 

Nobody roots their Android phones - except Linux geeks. The rest of the world, doesn't want to know. 

Linux serves appliances that users want - but users don't want Linux. 

 



[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 13:55:24 EST from Nurb432

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nah, just like android, underneath there is quite a bit of Linux. A browser isn't going to manage your hardware.

 


[#] Sat Mar 05 2022 17:38:30 EST from IGnatius T Foobar

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Not sure what you think you're getting at here. Microsoft is bad, Microsoft products are crap, and if you disagree, you're wrong. This is really simple and not difficult to understand.

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