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[#] Thu Jul 22 2021 16:09:02 EDT from Nurb432

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Some. I know im not among that group. :)

Trying to figure out how to get mac at the office and get mine upgraded before they are all M1 chips. So i can run Linux and have a windows VM ( not  be stuck with an emulator .. )

Thu Jul 22 2021 03:13:16 PM EDT from LoanShark

 This might finally be what some of us have been waiting for.

 



[#] Thu Jul 22 2021 16:33:22 EDT from LoanShark

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well, yeah, nuking Redmond might prevent further embrace/extend/extinguish.

All that aside, a couple of us had some long discussions about GUI/3D virtualization performance, a few months ago, this ties into that.

[#] Sat Jul 24 2021 11:27:53 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I'd like to have both on the same machine. Obviously I'd prefer if it were the other way around (accelerated Windows graphics on a Linux host) but this is good too, especially for people who are "stuck with Windows at work" and just want to run some of the real stuff on that machine.

I'm really hoping that they eventually get this stuff running on servers.
I know they keep saying that it's a developer tool and not a deployment tool.
But if they got it running on Windows Server I might consider doing the unthinkable.

[#] Sat Jul 24 2021 11:36:29 EDT from Nurb432

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Dont make us lose faith in you. 

 

:)

Sat Jul 24 2021 11:27:53 AM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

But if they got it running on Windows Server I might consider doing the unthinkable.

 



[#] Sun Jul 25 2021 12:02:51 EDT from LoanShark

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LOL

[#] Sun Jul 25 2021 21:08:19 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Heh. I doubt it will happen. You remember what happened in 1997 when I was convinced all was lost and was going to port Citadel to windoze ... the code I wrote in preparation for that made it a Linux program far more powerful than it was before. Also, gaming on your server VM host might suck down a few more cycles than basic desktop use currently does.

When I was looking at figuring out a dual-GPU setup for my main rig last year it was because I wanted to smash up cars and trains and airplanes with my son in BeamNG. That's no longer a required use case because I took the easy way out and bought *him* a faster computer.

[#] Mon Jul 26 2021 12:38:03 EDT from LoanShark

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Yeah, I'm cool with where WSL is going. Obviously if you're stuck with Windows, you're going to be running it either as the host or the guest one way or the other.

Frankly after the deep technical dive we got into a year or two ago, I became convinced that Microsoft might be the only company in the industry with both the expertise and the deep pockets to do desktop GPU virtualization *right.* After all, they designed a highly-effective 3D API in the form of Direct3D 12, which is the product of deep collaboration with Nvidia and AMD to figure out what works best. Oracle's efforts in this area just have not panned out, and some of the other hypervisors (VMware, KVM) came up with a partial solution but never something that was good enough to standardize across all 3 of the major GPU vendors (Nvidia, AMD, and Intel)


Microsoft has the ability to drive changes in GPU driver model far more quickly than tends to happen in the Linux space (look what happened with Wayland)

[#] Mon Jul 26 2021 12:44:29 EDT from Nurb432

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Something else that should have never happened.

Its as bad as sysD.

 

Mon Jul 26 2021 12:38:03 PM EDT from LoanShark

(look what happened with Wayland)

 



[#] Mon Jul 26 2021 12:48:10 EDT from LoanShark

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2021-07-26 12:44 from Nurb432
Something else that should have never happened.

Its as bad as sysD.

besides the fact that it's taken far too long to implement, the last time I checked, it has both benefits and drawbacks.

if you are using a window environment that does compositing, especially one where the compositing cannot be turned off, Wayland will be far more efficient than X. (Personal experience: try opening about 50+ openoffice windows in a batch, and see which environment runs out of memory and which does not. openoffice/libreoffice now target gtk2 so can function as a native wayland client *or* an X client.)

*but* for applications that cannot be ported from X to Wayland any time soon (*cough* Java *cough*), Xwayland has a few glitches.

[#] Mon Jul 26 2021 13:53:13 EDT from Nurb432

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My understanding from the beginning that it removes all the reasons X exists, trying to turn *nix into |yet another lame desktop os".  ( remote graphic calls and such )

I stopped reading at that point and was against it.



[#] Tue Jul 27 2021 09:17:13 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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You can compare it to systemd in another way, then: Wayland is happening whether you like it or not, so you'd better get used to it.

My understanding of the change is that X carries with it a ton of legacy technical debt from functionality that is no longer used, and all the real work is done in the compositor. The X server mainly just acts as a proxy between applications, the compositor, and the framebuffer. Wayland removes that and makes the compositor the main actor in display management.

But what about remoting? This is the chorus that was always raised when discussions of the Wayland transition began. Now that complaint is long gone because there is a Wayland compositor whose "framebuffer" is an RDP session that can be reached with any standard client. It even does individual windows instead of the whole screen if you want it to, restoring the X11 tradition of being able to have windows from multiple hosts running on the same desktop.

WSL-G actually uses the RDP compositor, establishing a session between the Linux and Windows sides of the machine, but with some performance hacks to use shared memory instead of a TCP connection. This gets the job done, but I think if they are serious about it they should be working on a native Wayland compositor that writes directly to the Windows desktop.

[#] Tue Jul 27 2021 16:34:11 EDT from Nurb432

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Sort of.

Its going to push me back to 100% bsd.  The only real reason im in Linux land now is due to driers, mainly NVIDIA.   

Tue Jul 27 2021 09:17:13 AM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
You can compare it to systemd in another way, then: Wayland is happening whether you like it or not, so you'd better get used to it.

 



[#] Tue Jul 27 2021 16:51:35 EDT from Nurb432

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"but what about remoting"  that is part of my argument against it. its not about remote, its about running an application remotely and having it send actual draw commands back. Not just some lame RDP framebuffer thing, but actual draw commands that take advantage of whatever video hardware you have, while the rest of the app hums away on whatever CPU it has on the 'server'. ( i know, technically the app is the client... client/server concepts are flipped, and i know why but its still confusing )

Ok, being able to have a single app render across and not be forced an entire desktop, it is nice that they listened to people like me and adapted, but if its still RDP/frame buffer crap on the back end i'm still not interested.

Sure, i may not be the majority. Never have been, but this is about me and why i hate it :)


And im not going to say X did not have any issues and could not be improved. Of course it could. But same as i feel about SysD, init should have been improved, not tossed out the window for some backwards thinking monolithic binary blob.


( and its a migrane day so i may sound a bit shorter than normal. Sorry for that up front )



[#] Wed Jul 28 2021 17:54:59 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Here's the thing. What you are calling "X" is not really X anymore. Just about everything an application draws nowadays is done in the compositor.
No one is using X11 primitives to draw lines and circles and stipples and all the stuff Athena Widgets might have used. Modern toolkits like Qt and GTK are working directly in the compositor. X11 doesn't *do* anything anymore, except sit there as a proxy between the display hardware, the compositor, and the applications, while carrying along with it a big pile of technical debt that can't be removed because some application written in 1988 might use it.

You're running X, but you're not really *using* X.

Have you tried remoting a large application like a browser over a remote X session lately? It doesn't work anymore.

As for systemd, I was already annoyed by the transition from System III init to System V init. I liked /etc/inittab, and I hate init scripts, so good riddance.

[#] Wed Jul 28 2021 19:10:00 EDT from Nurb432

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Yes, across SSH at least. Individual apps. ( chrome, since you mention browser. for a while i was using it to run cura, since there was no recent build possible on arm, only X86. ) I have not used XDM forever as if i want a desktop i would x2go as its bandwidth friendly ( and before that nomachine, which is what its based on ).  ( one of my list of things to improve.  low bandwidth X, never quite got there, at least not that i saw ) 

Perhaps the underlying mechanism has been ruined, ill take your word for it. I honestly have not been looking that close at code or following any of their mailing lists. I only remember reading about wayland and its goals to 'desktopify' X and was annoyed at it and not looked since. But from a 'use' standpoint, X works the same, for me.

Wed Jul 28 2021 05:54:59 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

Have you tried remoting a large application like a browser over a remote X session lately? It doesn't work anymore.

 



[#] Fri Jul 30 2021 07:05:33 EDT from darknetuser

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2021-07-26 13:53 from Nurb432
My understanding from the beginning that it removes all the reasons X

exists, trying to turn *nix into |yet another lame desktop os".  (
remote graphic calls and such )

I stopped reading at that point and was against it.


Wayland essentially has the client program draw itself and only places the drawn frames on the screen. So Wayland is orders of magnitude simpler than your regular X11, because it pushes all the complexity on the clients.
Wayland is like ipv6. Everybody agrees the predecessor is a dinosaur but I am not convinced the new alternative is up to it.

[#] Mon Aug 02 2021 14:41:16 EDT from LoanShark

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WSL-G actually uses the RDP compositor, establishing a session between

the Linux and Windows sides of the machine, but with some performance

hacks to use shared memory instead of a TCP connection. This gets the

job done, but I think if they are serious about it they should be
working on a native Wayland compositor that writes directly to the
Windows desktop.

Hmm, yeah, we talked about this a while back, and I had forgotten.

There's also some mention of the accelerated drivers for GPU virtualization. If they really wanted GPU acceleration to run at native or near-native speed, they could not be using the RDP compositor, so I'm unclear on the extent to which those beta accelerated WSL GPU drivers (now available for Intel, AMD, and Nvidia) really speed up desktop OpenGL use-cases rather than merely CUDA



:(

So maybe it's not the panacea I was hoping for.

[#] Mon Aug 02 2021 14:46:57 EDT from Nurb432

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See, us pessimists win again :P 

 

Mon Aug 02 2021 02:41:16 PM EDT from LoanShark

So maybe it's not the panacea I was hoping for.

 



[#] Mon Aug 02 2021 15:46:23 EDT from LoanShark

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LOL

[#] Mon Aug 02 2021 15:54:34 EDT from Nurb432

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And really im not opposed to change or improvement.  its just the common thread of 'lets reinvent the wheel' mentality you see a lot in the UNIX world irritates me, even when its not warranted and simple improvement would have been fine.. Most often times you lose things in that re-invention. Either due to agenda, or inexperience of why it worked that way.  Just because its shiny and new, does not make it better.

 

Sometimes just painting the wheel and some new lug nuts is all you needed.. 



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