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[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 17:01:35 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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More precisely - go into Best Buy today and see if you can buy a Windows Machine, an OS X machine - and an *actual* Linux machine, off the salesfloor. Go into any retailer. 

Oh... you can't? It is an OPTION you can tick on Dell and HP's websites... but - no one is selling them through channels. They would just sit there. No retailer wants to touch that shit. 

"But teh cHr0m3b00k iz teh LiNuXZ0rZ!" 

No. It isn't. It is something HIDING the Linux from the end user designed to be disposable that is only really gaining a foothold because Google flooded schools with them cheaply. Nobody *dreams* of owning a Chromebook. Nobody would want iOS or Android if the LINUX of them was the immediate, default OS and not hidden behind a root or jailbreak. 

Linux is only successful when you don't have to be exposed to the Linux of it. 

 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 17:32:51 EDT from Nurb432

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" Most popular" or just "Most Used"? ( you could say the same about windows.. is it popular or just used as as that is what came on the device? ) 

Due to the dumbing down of installers, a lot of people dont really understand they can change what they have..  "it came with it.. "    Sure, Debian does at least show you options during the install, but last time i installed Ubuntu i wasn't offered a choice, so i doubt lots of people realize its a choice and not a mandate.  ( and for the record i hate Ubuntu and the ONLY place i will run it is on my NVIDIA Jetson hardware, as it has all the drivers and tools supplied by NVIDIA to actually use the hardware, else its pointless ) 

Tue Apr 12 2022 04:57:51 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Gnome is the most popular 

 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 18:40:23 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Does it MATTER? 

Most used IS most popular. I mean... this whole thing with you and Ig gets tiring - because you're arguing on semantics and not on the practical reality.  It is all deflection from the fact that in 40 years, Linux has made little real direct and actual progress for computing for the masses *except* where it is hidden on their Android, Chrome or iOS device, or some other embedded appliance. 

And a huge part of that has to do with the philosophy I keep coming back to about Linux *itself* as the base foundation. It is difficult, obscure, inconsistent, and from an end user perspective, UNRELIABLE. It can be more STABLE and yet less RELIABLE, too... which is something that Linux advocates seem to confuse. Reliability is in, "Will it allow me to get done what I need to get done in a timeframe I can count on." 


Even if it takes 12 reboots, that is more RELIABLE than wondering if you'll even be able to figure out how to INSTALL your application in the timeframe you have, if it will be highly compatible with all the data sources you need to plug into it, if it will OPERATE in a consistent way from one machine to another (they're BOTH Linux, but how come this one looks SO different?) 

In a focus on user EXPERIENCE versus... I dunno... Linux sadism. 




Tue Apr 12 2022 17:32:51 EDT from Nurb432

" Most popular" or just "Most Used"? ( you could say the same about windows.. is it popular or just used as as that is what came on the device? ) 

Due to the dumbing down of installers, a lot of people dont really understand they can change what they have..  "it came with it.. "    Sure, Debian does at least show you options during the install, but last time i installed Ubuntu i wasn't offered a choice, so i doubt lots of people realize its a choice and not a mandate.  ( and for the record i hate Ubuntu and the ONLY place i will run it is on my NVIDIA Jetson hardware, as it has all the drivers and tools supplied by NVIDIA to actually use the hardware, else its pointless ) 

Tue Apr 12 2022 04:57:51 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Gnome is the most popular 

 



 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 18:41:16 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Every time I make this point, I feel like both of you stick your fingers in your ears and start chanting, "nyah nyah nyah, we can't HEAR you!" 

 



[#] Tue Apr 12 2022 19:25:42 EDT from Nurb432

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lol



[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 18:32:06 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-04-08 16:51 from Nurb432
I agree its just as or more user friendly from a GUI point of view,
but Is KDE still as bloated as it used to be?  I stopped using it
long ago due to resource use, and that i didn't need an 'integrated'

desktop ( and all the advantages that go along with one ) as i was
using non-kde apps anyway. Tho i guess now machines are so much
faster and larger i wouldn't notice...

 
Fri Apr 08 2022 04:02:16 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

I call bullshit. KDE is just as usable as Mac OS, and the Linux
underneath is way more unix native than Darwin.


You can slim KDE 4 down enough that you can have an usable desktop experience in an old computer with a motherfoard from 2004 and 2 GB of RAM. At job, our fleet of workstations used exactly that configuration until very recent times.

If you are a microchiphead there is not much of a point in running KDE when you can run something slimmer, in my opinion. I like KDE in that I can install it for other people and they will like it and find it nice, but I'd rather use a standalone window manager myself.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 18:34:59 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-04-08 19:15 from Nurb432
Im still using lxde. 


lxde is quite nice. That is what I used before I switched to fluxbox. Then I switched from fluxbox to things so hardcore that I will scare you if I tell you their names.

Welcome to the world in which there is no status bar and you have to hack it together with /bin/sh scripts running Unix utilities in a loop.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 18:44:41 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-04-12 17:32 from Nurb432
" Most popular" or just "Most Used"? ( you could say the same about

windows.. is it popular or just used as as that is what came on the

device? ) 

Due to the dumbing down of installers, a lot of people dont really

understand they can change what they have..  "it came with it.. " 

  Sure, Debian does at least show you options during the install,

but last time i installed Ubuntu i wasn't offered a choice, so i
doubt lots of people realize its a choice and not a mandate.  ( and

for the record i hate Ubuntu and the ONLY place i will run it is on

my NVIDIA Jetson hardware, as it has all the drivers and tools
supplied by NVIDIA to actually use the hardware, else its pointless



The Ubuntu way of offering you a choice regarding the UI is by offering you diferent install DVD. You pick up your desktop environment of choice by picking up the installer you want. It is not such a bad idea, actually.

Ubuntu also used to offer a so-called alternative install DVD, which was nothing else than Ubuntu served with a traditional Debian installer.

I remember thinking, back with Debian 5, that the installer was quite ok. Simple enough that you didn't have to fight with it, but you could dig into advanced options if that was your thing.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 19:09:40 EDT from Nurb432

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fvwm ? 

Thu Apr 14 2022 06:34:59 PM EDT from darknetuser
lxde is quite nice. That is what I used before I switched to fluxbox. Then I switched from fluxbox to things so hardcore that I will scare you if I tell you their names.


 



[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 19:17:57 EDT from Nurb432

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The only nice thing about Ubuntu was in the older days they did offer non-free drivers during setup. Saved some extra work.  Debian now does that too, at least on an optional disk, so that is no longer an advantage.

They also adopted sysD early on.  ( not getting into that debate here, just that i disapproved ) and started the pesudo walled garden of 'snap crap'.  Not any better than the apple and Microsoft 'stores'. 

Thu Apr 14 2022 06:44:41 PM EDT from darknetuser
I remember thinking, back with Debian 5, that the installer was quite ok. Simple enough that you didn't have to fight with it, but you could dig into advanced options if that was your thing.

 



[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 19:56:17 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-04-14 19:09 from Nurb432
fvwm ? 

If that is the worst you can imagine, you are close, but you still fram short from the actual horrors underneath.

Actually FVWM is very moddable and I have seen very cool configurations with it.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 19:58:58 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-04-14 19:17 from Nurb432
The only nice thing about Ubuntu was in the older days they did offer
non-free drivers during setup. Saved some extra work.  Debian now
does that too, at least on an optional disk, so that is no longer an
advantage.

They also adopted sysD early on.  ( not getting into that debate
here, just that i disapproved ) and started the pesudo walled garden
of 'snap crap'.  Not any better than the apple and Microsoft
'stores'. 
Thu Apr 14 2022 06:44:41 PM EDT from darknetuser

I remember thinking, back with Debian 5, that the installer was
quite ok. Simple enough that you didn't have to fight with it, but
you could dig into advanced options if that was your thing.


Oh, in my mind, Devuan is the new Debian, and Debian is a zombified version of what it used to be. It is still handy if you need to deploy something standarized fast and you don't want to deal with IBM/Red Hat, since Debian is pretty much the Default Linux for non-enterprisers these days.

[#] Thu Apr 14 2022 21:11:06 EDT from Nurb432

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Yes.  I keep planning on moving over now that they are mature enough for a daily driver.  But laziness is in full effect.  I suppose the next time i have to rebuild my desktop ill force myself to go ahead and do it.



[#] Sat Apr 16 2022 10:54:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Every time I make this point, I feel like both of you stick your
fingers in your ears and start chanting, "nyah nyah nyah, we can't
HEAR you!" 

That's because what you're saying is stupid. :P

The truth is, Windows remains dominant on the legacy desktop because network effects have kept it there. Period. End of discussion. You're claiming that it remains dominant because it's the best, and people love it, and they deliver the awesome end user experience people want. That's like claiming that McDonald's has better food than a five star Michelin rated restaurant because more people eat there.

Don't bother challenging my analogy because you'll still be wrong. Windows is highly successful. Windows is garbage. Because of network effects, these statements are both true.

This is why Windows has declined, and will continue to decline, everywhere except the desktop. Because when people feel that they CAN move away from Windows, they DO.

[#] Sat Apr 16 2022 11:56:45 EDT from Nurb432

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I wonder what happens when most everyone is using a zero client and pxe boot ...   Will your OS be forced down your throat via contracts with your ISP, effectively killing alternatives? i wonder. 

 

( sure, we wont see that in our lifetime, but i suspect its inevitable )

Sat Apr 16 2022 10:54:03 AM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
This is why Windows has declined, and will continue to decline, everywhere except the desktop. Because when people feel that they CAN move away from Windows, they DO.

 



[#] Sat Apr 16 2022 19:55:02 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I doubt it will be "killing alternatives" -- but we might go back to where we started, where having a computer that you maintain yourself is something a bit special.

Think about the early days of electrification. If you had electricity in your home, you had an on-site generator, and someone in your menagerie of hired help maintained it for you. They'd fuel it and run it and fix it, and when it was time to retire for the evening, they shut it off. When it became a utility, you could consume it and leave the maintenance to the professionals.

Likewise for owning a radio. Once it went mainstream, it wasn't long before they figured out how to make it an appliance rather than something you constructed and maintained yourself.

It's taken so long for computing to get to this point because until recently we simply didn't have the pervasive high-bandwidth networking to put all the maintenance behind the glass and just have "terminals" in everyone's homes.
It was also held back deliberately by bad actors such as Microsoft who worked hard to hold back Network Computing as long as they could, so they could continue peddling their ultra-high-maintenance crap OS.

So yes, I think we're rapidly heading towards a place where owning an Internet terminal is like owning a television, and most non-technical people are going to be ok with that. Gaming will have different requirements, of course, because no one seems to be able to get past that pesky latency problem. For everyone else, having a locally maintained computer will be something you do because you want to. And no, I don't think they'll be able to lock that out -- the genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

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