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[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 13:57:49 EST from Nurb432

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For me on x86 it was DesQview, then DesQview/X. I avoided "windows" as much as possible until NT4.  And my go to productivity app was Framework.

 

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.

Thu Jan 14 2021 21:39:20 EST from ParanoidDelusions

So... an interesting thing - is that for those of us retro enough - when Windows originally rode on top of DOS, many of us disliked the limitations of Windows and spent most of our time dropped back into DOS - in particular those of us who had come from systems like CP/M which were also CLI operating systems. Amiga OS was really a prototype for a system with a GUI that required CLI for many of the most technical challenges in operating the system. 

I



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 14:05:42 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Most of the people who dislike Windows had a dislike for it from the very start, I've noticed. Had a friend who went OS/2 Warp to Linux back in the day. 

Almost everyone else went Windows - though. Just easier than paddling upstream. 

NT4 was the first "real" iteration of Windows, for sure - but even then - it was a PITA for casual use. It wasn't until W2k Pro delivered Direct X that the NT and consumer fork of Windows started to converge... bringing NTFS to consumer systems and the leisure benefits of regular Windows to the Pro platforms. Oddly, going forward - that made workstation variants of "Pro" kind of redundant. Corporate desktops went to XP, instead of a W2kX pro... 

I think as far as commercial marketing is concerned, they would have been better off to keep a consumer and a professional fork clearly defined. 

 

 

Fri Jan 15 2021 13:57:49 EST from Nurb432

For me on x86 it was DesQview, then DesQview/X. I avoided "windows" as much as possible until NT4.  And my go to productivity app was Framework.

 

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.

Thu Jan 14 2021 21:39:20 EST from ParanoidDelusions

So... an interesting thing - is that for those of us retro enough - when Windows originally rode on top of DOS, many of us disliked the limitations of Windows and spent most of our time dropped back into DOS - in particular those of us who had come from systems like CP/M which were also CLI operating systems. Amiga OS was really a prototype for a system with a GUI that required CLI for many of the most technical challenges in operating the system. 

I



 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 14:15:47 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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One of the things I always disliked about the ST was that there was no CLI, to TOS/GEM. Kind of like the Mac Classic OS - I felt that I couldn't get properly "under the hood" if I needed to. 

I wonder why it feels that way. It is really just "presentation"... but there are some things I just prefer to do from a CLI interface - it feels like it is kind of related to my complaint about eInk vs. traditional print. In the command line, the files, file locations and hierarchies feel more tangible - and it is less cluttered generally being able to type out a command, for example, to copy things with a wildcard from the present directory to a different directory. You generally have finer granular control over files in a CLI. For example, the file I had lost among 15TB of storage - it is possible I could have set up a search for it using a GUI - but grep was was more efficient at locating the file. 

There is an element of that too... a CLI *is* closer to bare metal, because there is no abstraction layer - your window manager and desktop graphics, eating up resources. 

Fri Jan 15 2021 14:05:42 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 

 

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.

Thu Jan 14 2021 21:39:20 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 15:45:27 EST from Nurb432

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Perhaps not a native 'key command' but there were tons and tons of shells to run. 

Fri Jan 15 2021 14:15:47 EST from ParanoidDelusions

One of the things I always disliked about the ST was that there was no CLI, to TOS/GEM. Kind of like the Mac Classic OS - I felt that I couldn't get properly "under the hood" if I needed to. 

I wonder why it feels that way. It is really just "presentation"... but there are some things I just prefer to do from a CLI interface - it feels like it is kind of related to my complaint about eInk vs. traditional print. In the command line, the files, file locations and hierarchies feel more tangible - and it is less cluttered generally being able to type out a command, for example, to copy things with a wildcard from the present directory to a different directory. You generally have finer granular control over files in a CLI. For example, the file I had lost among 15TB of storage - it is possible I could have set up a search for it using a GUI - but grep was was more efficient at locating the file. 

There is an element of that too... a CLI *is* closer to bare metal, because there is no abstraction layer - your window manager and desktop graphics, eating up resources. 

Fri Jan 15 2021 14:05:42 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 

 

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.

Thu Jan 14 2021 21:39:20 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 



 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 15:49:19 EST from Nurb432

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And i do agree w2k was the best Microsoft did. Took them a long time to get there ( with some stolen help from IBM ) and its been downhill ever since. 

I was with OS/2 for a bit and we used it at GM and ford both, but it wasn't what i wanted, so ended up finding alternatives.  Other than BSD of course, one i liked a lot was vSTA. But once the web hit the masses, a lot of that stuff died instant deaths.  ( i wonder how Andy is doing these days )



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 18:37:43 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I mean, Me, Vista and Windows 8 were just roadbumps... I used them all... 

But XP was nice and so was Windows 7. Windows 10... well, all the OSes kind of suck these days. Lately, I've been leaning more towards making Linux one of my daily drivers, though. Just my general trend away from the main thoroughfares of the Information Superhighway. There isn't a lot I do anymore that *requires* a commercial OS. 

 

Fri Jan 15 2021 15:49:19 EST from Nurb432

And i do agree w2k was the best Microsoft did. Took them a long time to get there ( with some stolen help from IBM ) and its been downhill ever since. 

I was with OS/2 for a bit and we used it at GM and ford both, but it wasn't what i wanted, so ended up finding alternatives.  Other than BSD of course, one i liked a lot was vSTA. But once the web hit the masses, a lot of that stuff died instant deaths.  ( i wonder how Andy is doing these days )



 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 20:23:40 EST from Nurb432

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I was speaking from an admin point of view too, not just visual GUI stuff. W2K brought a lot of tools for system management too. 

On my own, there is nothing i need that requires windows, so i'm good, and have been for a couple of decades now.  In the case of my ARM boards ( there is that arm stuff again :) ) i'm sort of locked into Linux on some, due to NVIDIA support. So there BSD isn't a viable option, but at least its not windows :)

For the office, i'm down to 2 apps that need windows. ( the main thing i support, and a reporting tool.. ). but with luck that ends in a few months and we can finally upgrade out of the need for IE.  The reporting tool there are other options, if i want to go thru the trouble of 10 redoing years of legacy work. And i just might.

Fri Jan 15 2021 18:37:43 EST from ParanoidDelusions

I mean, Me, Vista and Windows 8 were just roadbumps... I used them all... 

But XP was nice and so was Windows 7. Windows 10... well, all the OSes kind of suck these days. Lately, I've been leaning more towards making Linux one of my daily drivers, though. Just my general trend away from the main thoroughfares of the Information Superhighway. There isn't a lot I do anymore that *requires* a commercial OS. 

 

Fri Jan 15 2021 15:49:19 EST from Nurb432

And i do agree w2k was the best Microsoft did. Took them a long time to get there ( with some stolen help from IBM ) and its been downhill ever since. 

I was with OS/2 for a bit and we used it at GM and ford both, but it wasn't what i wanted, so ended up finding alternatives.  Other than BSD of course, one i liked a lot was vSTA. But once the web hit the masses, a lot of that stuff died instant deaths.  ( i wonder how Andy is doing these days )



 



 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 22:52:59 EST from cmonkey

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One of the most pleasant things about Windows, pre NT, was that you could run more than one dos box. Back then I could have described so many things I didn't like about Windows. But I really didn't know enough to simplify the complaints with the one fact, I was just further from the hardware.

I really thought hard about purchasing a Vampire V4 Standalone. It really is the closest to what I've had in mind. The power is just about right. That they provide a fork of the Atari OS, as an alternative, does sweeten the deal.

The home brew and demo scene is fascinating. There are a couple videos floating around of SymbOS (Amstrad/MSX/Enterprise) that blow my mind. The home brew Speccy systems can be fascinating. Over in Russia they have a nice Pentagon/Scorpion clone with an actual z80 family mpu, real sound chips, and the rest is established on FPGA. I'm not a fan of the GR8BIT, but it is neat. A home brew MSX with more beef and accessories would be nice. But then I'm basically back on dos, with a smaller instruction set to remember. But I advise avoiding 64k pc demos. If you start watching them, eventually you realize its just porn.

CP/M really is quite amazing. For all that it can do, you can still review all the code; feeling somewhat confident you know the whole picture. I actually don't have 100% first-hand knowledge of that. But skimming through it, experience suggests you would. The Enhanced Drdos project worked over Opendos to compile with Watcom C. I've thought about seeing if I could rework it to build with something simpler, like Desmet C. It's too bad they didn't release the code for their extended memory manager and multitasker. Since they are tied together, you can only multitask inside of 64mb. It would have been interesting if Dr/OpenDos had progressed further. The child of CP/M could live on.



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 22:55:16 EST from cmonkey

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I still use deskview.

Fri Jan 15 2021 13:57:49 ESTfrom Nurb432

For me on x86 it was DesQview, then DesQview/X. I avoided "windows" as much as possible until NT4.  And my go to productivity app was Framework.

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 23:05:10 EST from cmonkey

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Just in case anyone still plays around with older Windows, here is a nice link (in case you haven't already been there).

http://retrosystemsrevival.blogspot.com/



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 23:22:03 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Wow. This thread is fascinating - and... it should really be on MY BBS... which has a much stronger focus on Retrogaming. :) 

So... I'm going to see how many of the posts I remember... I guess I could open another window... the web and multi-tasking - but I'm going to try to do this old-school retro style. It seems appropriate. 

So many posts. 

ANYHOW... 

So... I don't draw a distinction in my own application between the user-space and the admin-space as far as my experience goes. They're interchangeable. Maybe that is the Windows advantage - Linux is FANTASTIC in the admin space, once you get a grasp on it, but always lacks in the USER space. OS X is FANTASTIC in the USER space, and doesn't take any real effort to master, but the admin space of OS X is terrible - like a *nix that got kicked in the nuts. No matter how ROOT you are, APPLE is "King Root" of your system. 

Windows just rides the middle. Or did. They tore out Tlist, they tore out... is it tracert? They keep tearing out *essential* admin tools. Group Policy and AD got as complex and difficult to master as Linux file permissions. It got to the point where you had to have a specialized MS-SQL person, a specialized Exchange Person, a specialized GPO person, a specialized AD person, and they all had to know how to work together. 

But through it all - not only did Windows enable me to operate in the organization as a user - but it made me powerful as an Admin too. The licensing was a nightmare. I warned and warned and did everything I could, and still got hit with a $300k audit by Touche-Dillotte [sic] for unregistered software, which we then negotiated down to like, $125k... and we were a SMB. Microsoft knows how to squeeze your nutsack, and just when, too. 

I did master Exchange. I got REAL good at it, where I could do a brick level restore in an isolated network and bring it up and convince it that it was where it belonged. That isn't trivial. And it made me better at Linux, too... because e-mail and VoIP VM via e-mail is actually relatively straight forward in the *nix arena. I never figured out SQL, even after multiple Intel U classes and years of working with it. I think my Access/VBA experience now, I could transfer it to MS-SQL and be really good. I don't know that it matters anymore. I don't like DBA/DBE spaces, at any rate. They're the worst people in IT. Most of them like numbers and data, but are dispassionate about technology. 

Ok. I've forgotten the rest of the posts. I have to Read New again. 

 





Fri Jan 15 2021 23:05:10 EST from cmonkey

Just in case anyone still plays around with older Windows, here is a nice link (in case you haven't already been there).

http://retrosystemsrevival.blogspot.com/



 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 23:30:46 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Oh yeah. Vampire V4. I actually have no idea what I'm going to do with one. I am not a developer, I've got a MiSTer that will do RTG... There is nothing a V4 really buys me that I don't already have. 


And it is a boatload of money. 

But it is kind of like the Pi400. In two years when some awesome project comes out and the device is no longer available - I don't want to be paying scalper prices on eBay for one. 

And... eff it - I want to support development. A 68080 based Amiga, even if it is just a curiosity for me. I got the Coffin .vhd running on FS-UAE on my Pi400 now. It looks totally cool - and I feel like it absolutely takes the Amiga to the next level - but I'm not sure I want to put the time into figuring out how to exploit what it can do. I don't know what I could possibly do with all that power on an *Amiga*... 

That I can't already do easier on an OS X or Wintel box. 

But... I'm open minded. Show me. If I could drop modern OSes *and* Linux for an Amiga OS and be WAY off the radar - too... that might be enticing. 

 



[#] Fri Jan 15 2021 23:32:24 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Really. Not to try and poach users - but I'd like to establish The Sanitarium/The Amiga Archives - as a retro platforming destination. Ig already has his niche.  I already have a good deal of Retro gaming content published there. 

https://secure.wallofhate.com


Fri Jan 15 2021 23:22:03 EST from ParanoidDelusions

Wow. This thread is fascinating - and... it should really be on MY BBS... which has a much stronger focus on Retrogaming. :) 



 



 



[#] Sat Jan 16 2021 07:13:02 EST from darknetuser

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I do also hold the belief that there is a huge missed opportunity to

create an engine that really simulates a traditional pen and paper

FRP gaming experience, down to realistic depictions of custom metal

figurines and game boards.   

Probably not what you are thinking about, but there are online services that simulate maps and tables, if you want to gather with your friends and play some regular RPG online.

In fact Hasbro has a subscription based service for playing D&D such way, I think.

I have never used these, though. I'd rather play a heavily narative game over voice char with a dice bot than deploy some monstruous application for simulating figurine movements.

[#] Sat Jan 16 2021 07:33:26 EST from Nurb432

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Good for you. I did until the day i dropped "dos" ( well, i was using desqviewX by that point ). It was DRDos, but i cant remember if caldera had bought it by then or not.

 

Neat thing is that DVX would even run windows apps, across the network. Back when only unix people knew what that meant. 

Fri Jan 15 2021 22:55:16 EST from cmonkey

I still use deskview.

Fri Jan 15 2021 13:57:49 ESTfrom Nurb432

For me on x86 it was DesQview, then DesQview/X. I avoided "windows" as much as possible until NT4.  And my go to productivity app was Framework.

On the Atari, was of course vastly different.



 



[#] Sat Jan 16 2021 17:46:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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I've seen those. There are some that are approaching what I want. I really see an engine - and you can buy rules *and* adventure modules that plug into that engine - and it could be multiplayer or single player, or single player playing multiple characters. Vampire and Werewolf game? Post Apocalyptic game? Sword and sorcery game? Super Hero game? Sure. Different connected modules within that rule set? Sure. 

 

I just don't want it to do TOO much. a hex map with graphics that look hand drawn on it, like a Tolkein map. Not a realistic depiction of the city - an icon of the city, or the lake. Make it look like a cloth map. Make it feel like I'm sitting down at actual game materials. Don't immerse me in YOUR vision of the game world, let my mind create the immersion. 

Sat Jan 16 2021 07:13:02 EST from darknetuser

Probably not what you are thinking about, but there are online services that simulate maps and tables, if you want to gather with your friends and play some regular RPG online.

In fact Hasbro has a subscription based service for playing D&D such way, I think.

I have never used these, though. I'd rather play a heavily narative game over voice char with a dice bot than deploy some monstruous application for simulating figurine movements.

 



[#] Sun Jan 17 2021 07:21:32 EST from Nurb432

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Grab something like Gadot and make one?  Of if you want something immersive: OpenSimulator. 

Lots of both paid and free assets for both, and of course you can do either with any asset you create.  

Sat Jan 16 2021 17:46:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

I've seen those. There are some that are approaching what I want. I really see an engine - and you can buy rules *and* adventure modules that plug into that engine - and it could be multiplayer or single player, or single player playing multiple characters. Vampire and Werewolf game? Post Apocalyptic game? Sword and sorcery game? Super Hero game? Sure. Different connected modules within that rule set? Sure. 

 

I just don't want it to do TOO much. a hex map with graphics that look hand drawn on it, like a Tolkein map. Not a realistic depiction of the city - an icon of the city, or the lake. Make it look like a cloth map. Make it feel like I'm sitting down at actual game materials. Don't immerse me in YOUR vision of the game world, let my mind create the immersion. 

Sat Jan 16 2021 07:13:02 EST from darknetuser

Probably not what you are thinking about, but there are online services that simulate maps and tables, if you want to gather with your friends and play some regular RPG online.

In fact Hasbro has a subscription based service for playing D&D such way, I think.

I have never used these, though. I'd rather play a heavily narative game over voice char with a dice bot than deploy some monstruous application for simulating figurine movements.

 



 



[#] Sun Jan 17 2021 12:30:19 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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.vba in Access and learning Scratch3. 

There is my development/programming CV. 

:) 

 

Sun Jan 17 2021 07:21:32 EST from Nurb432

Grab something like Gadot and make one?  Of if you want something immersive: OpenSimulator. 

Lots of both paid and free assets for both, and of course you can do either with any asset you create.  

Sat Jan 16 2021 17:46:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 



[#] Sun Jan 17 2021 17:11:15 EST from Nurb432

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You dont need to learn any code to get started.  just take it slow.

I used to be the resident access expert at the office. Until they banned its use. 

 

 

Sun Jan 17 2021 12:30:19 EST from ParanoidDelusions

.vba in Access and learning Scratch3. 

There is my development/programming CV. 

:) 

 

Sun Jan 17 2021 07:21:32 EST from Nurb432

Grab something like Gadot and make one?  Of if you want something immersive: OpenSimulator. 

Lots of both paid and free assets for both, and of course you can do either with any asset you create.  

Sat Jan 16 2021 17:46:55 EST from ParanoidDelusions

 



 



[#] Sun Jan 17 2021 17:36:31 EST from ParanoidDelusions

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Pretty sure I used to be the resident Access expert at the office, until they banned me. :D :D :D

 

Sun Jan 17 2021 17:11:15 EST from Nurb432

You dont need to learn any code to get started.  just take it slow.

I used to be the resident access expert at the office. Until they banned its use. 

 

 

 



 



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