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[#] Mon Jul 05 2021 12:30:05 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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What's a DE-10? All I can find on teh interwebz are trains and a few maker boards.

[#] Mon Jul 05 2021 12:32:24 EDT from Nurb432

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Its what you use for mister. The 'maker boards' sounds like you got the right one.

https://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=1046

You can use JUST, that or add a few pieces to expand it. but its still small. About the size of a NUC with all the extras  and a case. 

Mon Jul 05 2021 12:30:05 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
What's a DE-10? All I can find on teh interwebz are trains and a few maker boards.

 



[#] Mon Jul 05 2021 12:34:11 EDT from Nurb432

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addons:  https://misteraddons.com/

 

And as everyone knows i'm not fond of using FPGA for 'emulating' old hardware at a gate level, but many do..  So you have that.. 



[#] Tue Jul 06 2021 16:42:14 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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About the size of a 2.5" portable hard disk, say, stacked 3 deep. 

Really small and convenient. That is the point. You don't NEED an extra room to have EVERYTHING you would like to have, but don't have the room for. 

 

Sun Jul 04 2021 17:05:48 EDT from Nurb432

A DE-10 is pretty small..  



 



[#] Tue Jul 06 2021 16:58:39 EDT from Nurb432

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Looks more like a 3.5" from images i have seen, but i agree, still tiny.  ( i could go get an STL for a case and measure it.. but im lazy )

Tue Jul 06 2021 04:42:14 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

About the size of a 2.5" portable hard disk, say, stacked 3 deep. 

 

 



[#] Tue Jul 20 2021 08:40:06 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Here is part of what I hate social media. Arguing with Cliff Claven types who think they know something but social media puts their opinion on equal ground with actual experts on the subject - and the only way to establish this is to crush them and come off as an arrogant asshole. Members of the Participation Trophy generation REALLY get their hackles up when their FEELINGS and opinions are met with someone else's HARD FACTS: 


Floppy-less A500 hard drive options?

13 Comments
 
 
 
 

 

 
 
level 1
·16h
 

So, my thought on the subject is that mass storage really benefits most from an accelerated CPU. Why not just go with a Classic 520 accelerator, which will add a CF-to-IDE and removable SD mass storage option, along with a hefty RAM upgrade and a 68ec020 that won't stutter on all of those upgrades?

For around 200 euro - it is a great all-in-one plug and play solution that will get you up and running with WHDload titles on any later revision 1MB chip-ram A500.

https://amigastore.eu/722-classic-520-amiga-500-accelerator.html

1
 
 
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level 2
·3h
 

Yes and no. Pretty much every old 2d platformer/shooter/puzzler and so on, doesn’t benefit from any cpu acceleration. And Whdload runs with a stock 7Mhz Amiga and some fast RAM, giving you incredible comfort playing those old games. Also, the fast ram gives you in some situations quite some acceleration. On the other hand, polygonal 3D games, wing commander and some games like those from Sierra and Lucasfilm benefit to varying degrees from acceleration. Also if you want to do some “work” on your Amiga, then I’d say you need to accelerate.

1
 
 
level 3
·12m
 

So, I disagree. I want to start off by saying that in addition to the genuine Amiga systems I also own a MiST, a couple MiSTers, and a Vampire V4 Stand Alone - and I'm an IT professional who has worked for companies like EMC and Intel as a Systems engineer/Admin in their datacenters. My first Amiga purchase was an Amiga 2000 in March of 1987. Not to brag - but just to establish - I'm not just talking about things I've read on the forums, here.

TL:DR - HD and memory upgrades are bottlenecked on a stock 7mhz 68k without a better CPU - and if you're going to do both of those, you might as well go all-in and add at least a 68ec020 CPU accelerator.

Long Version:

There is a notable improvement in response and feel with the genuine Amiga 500 with a Classic 520 or ACA 500 with ACA 1220LC, even on some 2d platformers like Great Giana Sisters - over a stock Amiga 500. You'll notice it at the opening rainbow scroll on the Time Warp Productions splash screen. Everything feels a little quicker, a little crisper, on any sort of accelerated Amiga compared to a stock 7mhz one. It isn't the day and night difference of playing a modern intense 3D game on stock Intel HD graphics vs. a Nvidia RTX GPU - but there is a *difference*.

But speeding up platformers isn't what we are talking about... and besides, too much speed actually will make a platformer *impossible*, which is part of why a V4 has a default "turtle mode" that slows down WHDLoad titles by default. Many games would play impossibly fast at the speed increases that a Vampire brings to the table for classic Amiga titles. Anyone who has tried to play an original DOS or early Windows platformer on a modern machine, if they got it to run at all, has experienced this. Donkey Kong designed for a 486DX66 is going to be unplayable on a modern i7 unless you slow that i7 *way* down.

But beyond the user experience with programs - an IDE drive makes i/o demands on your computer that SCSI offloads to the controller - which is part of why back in the day, Amiga hard drive systems were originally SCSI (and part of why SCSI remains far more expensive than drive subsystems like IDE, ATA, and SATA that came after it). This is generally why SCSI remained the favorite enterprise data-center platform long after SCSI was replaced as a home computing interface - despite its extra expense. (Enterprise SATA is a different story, though).

When using non-SCSI drives with a traditional 68000 7mhz Amiga - acceleration isn't really about how fast the *games* will play it is about the overall performance of the system and its discreet I/O subsystems. Any Amiga you intend on using IDE, including a CF-to-IDE adaptor, should benefit greatly from at least a 68ec020 accelerator.

It isn't necessarily going to speed up your experience in Lemmings - but once you add booting from the HD, loading MORE things because of having more system memory and more storage to load more things (like the WHDLoad framework, maybe MagicWB, TinyLauncher or other front-end, and other system utilities that run in the background,) and then start launching the games from the HD from WHDLoad... the *reasons* you want to load and launch from a HD system - acceleration will make the whole experience faster, quicker... which again, is part of the reason you would consider a HD system on a classic Amiga.

It is kind of like tuning your car without actually putting on a high performance exhaust. with an IDE CF hard drive system, the 7mhz 68k CPU becomes a bottleneck that is holding back a lot of the performance you've already paid for with *other* upgrades.

If you're going to do a RAM upgrade and add IDE to a classic Pre-68030 Amiga, you might as well go with an accelerator that includes it all. Otherwise, if you just want to play games, you generally only need 1 or maybe 2mb of RAM, and a Gotek on any OCS/ECS system where you primarily intend to play games.

But the acceleration does make a big difference on a lot of entertainment titles too. Bards Tale 1 is a painfully slow experience on a 68000 - it is a game that was pushing the limits of the 68k even when it was new. Play it on a 68ec020 CPU, and it is a far more enjoyable experience. Stunt Car Racer and other polygon games (which is what the Amiga was ABOUT, right?) are frequently far more playable.

The value proposition of an all-in-one A500 sidecar accelerator that includes IDE, 8mb of memory or more, and a 68ec020 accelerator is better, overall, than doing a HD and memory upgrade independently of a processor upgrade.

But honestly, at 180 euro - you're about another 180 euro away from just getting a MiSTer FPGA - which will give you an even more powerful Amiga experience that is just as authentic - and you'll get lots of OTHER authentic retro cores in the bargain for that price. If you are cash strapped - sell the real Amiga to a collector and put that money toward a MiSTer - you'll have more fun and get the MOST value from your money that way.

1
 
 
 
level 4
·1m
 

Firepower is an additional title that is, by appearances - just a simple "capture the flag" overhead tank shooter game.

It lags and stutters and stalls out, has audio artifacts, on a stock 7mhz 68k machine. It was pushing the limits of the original Amiga it was designed for. It plays like a whole different game on an accelerated Amiga. There are lots of benefits to pumping up that stock 7mhz Moto CPU to at least a 68ec020 - especially if you are already contemplating a RAM and HD upgrade.

 



[#] Tue Aug 03 2021 01:13:21 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Logged in right now via Telnet on my Vampire V4 Amiga - while listening to old school 80's rock - after an evening playing Pool of Radiance (The GOG version, which has some great cheats that aren't available on the Amiga version - although they would probably work on my MiSTer in ao486. I might have to give that a try. Anyhow... old school retro fun. Sorta.

[#] Tue Aug 03 2021 10:00:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Nice.  During the first couple of years of Uncensored, I had my Amiga 1000 set up as a terminal on the unix system, so the experience would definitely be similar to that.   (The other terminals were a Zenith Z-19 and an ADDS Viewpoint 60.)



[#] Thu Aug 05 2021 01:25:13 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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In the late 80s I had an Adds Viewpoint terminal hooked up to a MIC 504 Z80 dual floppy system running The Sanitarium on Cit80. 

I wish I had hung onto that rig. It was awesome. BDOS errors were a PITA, though - but I bet there was some sort of hard drive solution for it, somewhere. 


It was fun. Tonight I just played a few encounters of Pool of Radiance. My characters are 3rd level, which makes them pretty badass. They're out of the "one hit one kill" window with most monsters. 

 

Tue Aug 03 2021 10:00:03 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

Nice.  During the first couple of years of Uncensored, I had my Amiga 1000 set up as a terminal on the unix system, so the experience would definitely be similar to that.   (The other terminals were a Zenith Z-19 and an ADDS Viewpoint 60.)



 



[#] Fri Sep 03 2021 20:46:12 EDT from Nurb432

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Ran across this when rummaging thru some boxes. 

Classic late 80s embedded device. Made a lot of them for the plant i worked at.  Came up with a rudimentary programming language for them. ( based on forth ). Mostly used for monitoring, a few did active controlling too.

8031, 32k ram 32k rom.  I piggybacked the 2 memory chips to save myself PCB traces.  ( this one was an early prototype, and missing the serial comm driver )

Amazing how far we have come in such a short period.  Now an ESP32 does all this, at 32 bit, with wireless communications, tons more storage .. tons faster and fits within the space of the mCU alone.  ( for perhaps 5 bucks.. )

 



[#] Fri Sep 03 2021 21:07:20 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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My wife worked for Chip Gracey, at Parallax, the BASIC stamp Kit guys. 

Also the guy that made the ISEPIK C-64 memory dump cart. He made that in High School, made enough to start Parallax, and then quit the C-64 stuff. 

 

Fri Sep 03 2021 20:46:12 EDT from Nurb432

Ran across this when rummaging thru some boxes. 

Classic late 80s embedded device. Made a lot of them for the plant i worked at.  Came up with a rudimentary programming language for them. ( based on forth ). Mostly used for monitoring, a few did active controlling too.

8031, 32k ram 32k rom.  I piggybacked the 2 memory chips to save myself PCB traces.  ( this one was an early prototype, and missing the serial comm driver )

Amazing how far we have come in such a short period.  Now an ESP32 does all this, at 32 bit, with wireless communications, tons more storage .. tons faster and fits within the space of the mCU alone.  ( for perhaps 5 bucks.. )

 



 



[#] Mon Sep 06 2021 12:18:01 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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I love the look of home grown circuit boards.  It's got an aesthetic that cannot be matched.  Through-hole forever!



[#] Tue Sep 07 2021 16:47:48 EDT from zelgomer

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Seeing that reminds me of wire wrapping projects in school.  Unfortunately that was the last time I ever did anything with hardware.  My entire professional career has been in software, for better or worse.

If I were a more motivated person, I would dig out my old bread board and play with that stuff in my free time.  It's too bad the pandemic finally killed off Fry's, there was one near me that was a convenient source for that kind of stuff.  At least, that's the excuse they used.  I was suspecting something was up even before 2020 when I would go there to buy a stick of RAM and most of their shelves were empty.



[#] Tue Sep 07 2021 17:10:08 EDT from Nurb432

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I was never fond of wirewrap .   I dont know why, it was an accepted standard..



[#] Wed Sep 08 2021 14:17:11 EDT from zelgomer

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I've never seen it in the wild, so I'm sure it was a long-dead practice even when I was forced to do it for a class.  I could be wrong, but I want to say the point was that bread boards were too noisy for some applications, so, tedious as it was, it offered some middle-ground rapid prototyping with lower noise but before you were ready to start fabricating PCBs.

I can say I have experienced wire-wrapping, but I am too young to have ever experienced those UV-activated EPROMs like the one in that photo.



[#] Wed Sep 08 2021 16:55:07 EDT from Nurb432

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It was still around when i was in school. But i agree, the time was fast approaching for digital logic, that it wasn't going to work due to clock speeds increasing.  All those little antennas..  



[#] Thu Sep 09 2021 13:26:02 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Wire wrap was popular in the 1960's and 1970's when computers were built with discrete logic. It was possible to configure new instructions into the processor's instruction set. Just about everything was breakout onto a wire wrap grid.

I've also seen it used in telco racks, as an alternative to punchdown blocks.

But as a method of constructing circuits ... yeah, way before my time too.

[#] Sun Sep 12 2021 14:38:07 EDT from Nurb432

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Well the cleaning frenzy has taken the life of my caclaior collection.  Out it goes to a friend monday.  As a bonus he gets a HP320lx.. 

After this round, wont be much left. Even getting rid of most current things that are not being used. 

 

I think tools are next..  i have too many.



[#] Wed Sep 15 2021 16:30:59 EDT from Nurb432

Subject: MiSTer

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So someone said they had a DE-10 nano to run "MiSTer" cores.

3 questions:

  1. Have you tried the ST core?
  2. Have you tried a 386 core?
  3. DId either or both do ok?


[#] Sun Sep 19 2021 09:17:02 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

Subject: Re: MiSTer

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Yes, yes, yes. 

So, I'm a bit of a MiSTer evangelist. This conversation, in depth - should really be directed to my BBS. It is kind of the niche I am going for over there - and I'll be willing to go into great detail and provide deep insight over there. 

My blog, at donovancolbert.blogspot.com also has a lot of articles on FPGA and MiSTer. 

The x86 core is actually ao486 - and is a 486sx architecture core that runs like a *very* fast 386DX for most intents and purposes. I run Windows 98SE, I've written up a document of how to set it up - and to give you a basic idea - I can do all kinds of "1996 telecommunications" from it, it is seen on my Windows network as a Windows machine - you could arguably run an era appropriate version of Linux on it if you wanted... and I completed Myst on it and have Diablo 1 running and roughly "playable" on it. 

The ST core has worked for me well enough to play a variety of games - although it is less well-developed for MiSTer than for the precursor, MiST - or was. It may have improved remarkably - most cores have. At one time it was experimental and unsupported, but at this point I believe it is part of the official distribution and actively developed. I know there is a Midi solution available - I haven't deep dived into what variations of ST it can support (Mega, etc.)  - I basically have mine configured as a basic 1040STe circa say, 1989 - and in this capacity, like most MiSTer cores - it is indistinguishable for all intents and purposes from genuine hardware. For more demanding applications it may be more limited. 

I'd say both did "OK" if we're being very demanding, and "excellent" if expectations are set appropriately. 

So, back around 2002-2003 I got an itch for 80s computing nostalgia. I attempted software emulation, MAME, STella and other primitive software emulators. They were all very difficult to configure, limited by the processing available at the time (Early Centrino and Core Duo platforms) and had poor user interfaces including user i/o (joysticks and such were not quite as well worked out in the PC environment back then as they are now, and PS/2 was still a dominant interface for keyboard and mouse). 

Between cycle inaccuracy and input lag/delay - it just wasn't a real authentic experience. It was awesome proof of concept - but I didn't want to wait for the technology to catch up with the idea. I decided that the only way to accurately relive the old machines was to purchase the genuine hardware. So I did. In particular, the C=64 keyboard doesn't adapt well to a modern 101 AT style keyboard. The * and " are in different places, and PetASCII keys aren't marked, plus other issues. But it was pretty much the same for all platforms. There was always a deal breaker. In the last 20 years, I've gathered an impressive collection of original hardware, from the Atari 2600 and early Pong consoles to accelerated Amiga 500 units that are faster than stock Amiga 3000 units. Probably $10,000 invested, with a street value currently that I'd guess is around $30,000. I mean, I even have a Vectrex. 

Along the way, I tried various other more modern solutions. The 5200 and Coleco are both notoriously difficult to keep in good repair. Eventually I gave RetroPi a shot... and it is *cheap* and *good*...  but then I got a MiST and MiSTer - and basically I stopped using all of that other stuff. It is just a museum now. 

The real proof came when I had guests visiting. They were playing the SNES core on RetroPi, Playing Super Mario World, and they got to level 8-4 and couldn't get past it. They were complaining about how they were just old and didn't have the reflexes they used to have. I took them into my office, turned on the MiSTer, fired up the SNES core, gave them a d-pad - and they cleared it first time. Both said, "I thought that thing in the other room was awesome, and super accurate - until I got onto this - and I can instantly feel the difference. The game plays the way I remembered it, now... it wasn't me... it was the hardware." 

Same thing happened when I swapped out the Intel Core box I was using in my Mame cabinet for a MiSTer. My wife always was disappointed with Ms. Pac Man - which is her favorite title, on MAME on Intel or other software emulation. The first time she played on MiSTer she said, "this feels like a real Ms. Pac Man game." 

The average users don't know how to describe what makes FPGA feel more accurate - and people who really understand the technology really love to argue that software emulation is theoretically no different than FPGA - that the accuracy depends on how well the core is written... 

But people who *don't* know, consistently feel like FPGA cores are more accurate and authentic. There is something intangible about running on bare metal with no abstraction layers between the user and the experience - and average players pick up on it almost immediately. 






Wed Sep 15 2021 16:30:59 EDT from Nurb432 Subject: MiSTer

So someone said they had a DE-10 nano to run "MiSTer" cores.

3 questions:

  1. Have you tried the ST core?
  2. Have you tried a 386 core?
  3. DId either or both do ok?


 



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