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[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 12:44:52 EDT from vince-q

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Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre

natum, ante omnia saecula. [etc]

"And in his son Jesus Christ, His only son, and from his birth all are

saved."
(if my translation is anywhere near correct, which is debateable).


Close, but not really close enough.

"And in one lord Jesus Chrise, only son of God, born of the Father before all ages."

There. Much closer.

The only "difficult" phrase is "ante omnia saecula" wherein appears that nasty word "saecula." The first English post-=atican-II translation of the phrase was "before all worlds." Very misleading in the overall theological context, even though it seemed to "flow" better in the speaking of the Nicene Creed wherein it is used.

The Orthodox (and no, I do not know Greek) seem to have gotten closer.

The contentious phrase there (in Latin here) is at the end of the Doxology:

"per omnia saecula saeculorum"

which also appears at the end of so many Latin Roman Catholic prayers that numbering them would be a lifetime chore.

Every Orthodox priest/bishop I know basically says it means "through every age" or "through all ages".

The common "boyhood" translation used pre-Vatican-II was "world without end" which is, upon anything but the most cursory examination, very much short of the real meaning of the Latin. OK for "us kids in the 1950s" but it started becoming a real issue starting with Latin I in high school (the Christian Brothers at LaSalle HS in Philly). The Nuns could not be bothered with it. There were erasers to clap, boards to clean, and behinds to be smacked with those yard-sticks. Latin? Just say the words and shut up!! <smack>

Ah well, enough for now.

Pax Domine!

[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 12:48:40 EDT from vince-q

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Anyway, it seems to me that the fasting, sacrificial abstinence,
Novenas, Stations, etc etc were all added by someone else later on, and

while it's good to focus on the Cross for a season, who came up with
all that stuff and why is it legit that they added it?


None of that is required. At least, not today.
The items you cited are viewed as either pious beliefs or pious practices. Not required. Failure to abstain or to attend Stations of the Cross, or Novenas, or First Fridays, or any other similar thing is not - in and of itself - going to qualify you for a place in Hell. Doing those thing, however, may spiritually predispose you toward wanting to do more of the things that may actually be classified as Good Works (aiding the poor, etc.) and those just may qualify you for a place "upstairs"...

"Deus vult!"

[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 16:07:30 EDT from fleeb

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Eh, I figured I was off. Been too long.

[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 16:35:20 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Doing those thing, however, may spiritually predispose you toward wanting to do more of the things that may actually be classified as Good Works (aiding the poor, etc.) and those just may qualify you for a place "upstairs"... 

I suppose that's the predominant belief among Catholics (and, in a roundabout sort of way, Calvinists).  The rest of us are familiar with Ephesians 2:8-9:

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Of course, that doesn't mean we can just go ahead and be douchebags (although Calvinists seem to enjoy that) ...



[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 18:38:27 EDT from vince-q

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/"*8*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this
is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— *9*not by works, so
that no one can boast."/


...which is more than offset by "That which you have done unto these, the least of My brethren, so have you also done unto Me." [Jesus Christ]

[#] Tue Oct 07 2014 23:45:49 EDT from ax25

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Tue Oct 07 2014 04:35:20 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar
Doing those thing, however, may spiritually predispose you toward wanting to do more of the things that may actually be classified as Good Works (aiding the poor, etc.) and those just may qualify you for a place "upstairs"... 

I suppose that's the predominant belief among Catholics (and, in a roundabout sort of way, Calvinists).  The rest of us are familiar with Ephesians 2:8-9:

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Of course, that doesn't mean we can just go ahead and be douchebags (although Calvinists seem to enjoy that) ...



That crazy Martin Luther dude that ran off with a nun, fell in to that camp as well. re: "The Smalcald Articles".



[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 07:51:42 EDT from zooer

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At what temperature Fahrenheit does hell burn for Calvinists?

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 08:30:58 EDT from fleeb

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Whatever it is, I'm sure it's measured in Kelvins.

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 09:26:25 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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At what temperature Fahrenheit does hell burn for Calvinists?

Calvinists believe that Hell only burns for non-Calvinists.

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 13:18:42 EDT from zooer

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Temperature can be measured in any scale, my pun... apparently not.

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 13:33:26 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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Actually, the pastor at my church happens to be named Kelvin ... but he is not a Calvinist.

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 13:57:36 EDT from fleeb

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Can he take one's temperature? Or at least measure it accurately?

[#] Wed Oct 08 2014 22:08:37 EDT from zooer

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I really love what you have done with the place.

[#] Thu Oct 09 2014 23:28:25 EDT from ax25

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I rather liked Hobbes better.



[#] Fri Oct 10 2014 19:11:04 EDT from zooer

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MESSAGE_NOT_FOUND 75

[#] Fri Oct 10 2014 23:32:53 EDT from ax25

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  xv << Hangman_-_1978_-_Fairchild_Semiconductor.png

Fri Oct 10 2014 07:11:04 PM EDT from zooer
MESSAGE_NOT_FOUND 75

 



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