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[#] Sat Sep 10 2022 11:42:51 EDT from Nurb432

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My problem is i got burnt out some 20 years ago.  "Make your hobby your job and you wont work a day in your life" 

Lies.  I lost my hobby and hate my job.



[#] Sat Sep 10 2022 13:20:44 EDT from LadySerenaKitty

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Writing software can be relaxing.  It can also make one feel like a dumbass.  To quote myself from FreeBSD Discord:

"I am, despite some brain damage, still managing to be smart and intelligent. I only feel stupid because I am a software developer, and we teach a hunk of metal with literally no brains how to do somewhat intelligent things"

Source: https://discord.com/channels/727023752348434432/727023752348434436/1008935413790036028

 

I also find driving to be relaxing.



[#] Sat Sep 10 2022 13:32:36 EDT from Nurb432

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Only if its FAR away from people.

People drive like idiots.

Sat Sep 10 2022 01:20:44 PM EDT from LadySerenaKitty

 

I also find driving to be relaxing.



 



[#] Thu Sep 15 2022 15:21:41 EDT from zelgomer

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Lies.  I lost my hobby and hate my job.


Man, I can relate to that. I still spend way too much of my free time writing software, but I don't know if I still enjoy it the same way. I tend to view it as an unhealthy obsession rather than as a hobby. I really need to get outside...

Anyway, separate topic: I have friends and family who I stay in touch with mostly by SMS. I've been thinking about checking out Signal or Telegram for the E2E encryption.
1) Have any of you used any of these things? Do you have any preference, and why?
2) Also, between these two (or some other option I haven't heard of), do you think I have a high chance of convincing non-technical people to adopt?

[#] Thu Sep 15 2022 16:29:16 EDT from Nurb432

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Why not run your own jabber protocol server? If they have to change anyway and learn new stuff, at least its under your control.

Or go all out and something like jitsi.   



[#] Thu Sep 15 2022 18:39:06 EDT from zelgomer

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2022-09-15 20:29 from Nurb432 <nurb432@uncensored.citadel.org>
Why not run your own jabber protocol server? If they have to change
anyway and learn new stuff, at least its under your control.

Or go all out and something like jitsi.   


Hmm..........xmpp has been on my radar of things i should know. Tempting.

[#] Thu Sep 15 2022 19:55:53 EDT from Nurb432

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And if you didnt catch the hint. citadel does that :) 



[#] Thu Sep 15 2022 20:15:05 EDT from zelgomer

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2022-09-15 23:55 from Nurb432 <nurb432@uncensored.citadel.org>
And if you didnt catch the hint. citadel does that :) 


No, I didn't, and I came back to say after thinking about it, I don't need to be doing this. After I just said writing software is more of an unhealthy obsession than a hobby, I need to be reducing my private sysadmin overhead, not expanding it!

The whole IM situation sucks. This is why I cling so hard to irc, it's just become a familiar default. We've had this discussion on irc2p a few times. Once I start reading about jabber, then I read about how all the cool kids have moved on to Matrix, and then the next cool thing will be Tox, and it becomes this endless spiral of reading about different chat protocols and they all sound great but none of them have good implementations and there's no chance in hell I'm ever going to get non-tech friends to adopt, so what's tbe point?

No, I want to return to my original ask. I have friends who, despite my protests, use discord, even though they fully acknowledge that it's Big Brother. Now some of them are finally coming around to accepting that it actually matters, but their answer is to start using SMS more instead of Discord. I just want to get us on something with encryption. Baby steps.

[#] Fri Sep 16 2022 10:45:31 EDT from Nurb432

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if i didnt want to run it myself, id still go with jabber.   some clients do support end to end..   and i trust those servers more ( like jabber.org ) than the 'social' providers  



[#] Mon Sep 19 2022 09:11:12 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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The problem is the end users. They aren't sufficiently motivated to do anything "difficult". That's why Discord is the new IRC.

I can even tell you, unless you can really motivate your group to distrust authority and to distrust mainstream tech, don't even bother with Citadel.
Or with Jitsi, or with anything else. Your problem isn't the software. It's the users.

[#] Mon Sep 19 2022 10:35:39 EDT from Nurb432

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User acceptance is one reason i suggested jiti . if he installs the client for them its brain dead easy to use. It stores your 'rooms' in history on the start screen so after the first time its just a click to get back to famiy.  And it has video chat, which so many people seem to like these days. ( and in my case, i like that i can self-host..)

 

but xmpp could be the same, regardless of self-host or not " here, let me set it up.. "



[#] Mon Sep 19 2022 10:37:02 EDT from Nurb432

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dammit. keyboard is acting up worse today..  losing characters.  Whomever is capturing my keystrokes, dont keep them too!



[#] Mon Sep 19 2022 15:47:34 EDT from nristen

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About 15 years ago I was first introduced to XMPP/Jabber when my former employer was using it to facilitate communication between SMS and 911 operators.

 

Not that long ago, I was looking for the best option for self-hosted im and was very interested to find all of the features being added to XMPP such as OMEMO encryption and voice/video calls.

I tried connecting xmpp clients to citadel but found that a lot of clients would not work unless the server offered TLS so I setup a Prosody server which works really well with low resource utilization.

 

One of the new areas being worked on with XMPP is authentication including 2FA which concerns me especially around self hosted solutions because this can require connections to 3rd parties.

Karl



[#] Mon Sep 19 2022 16:27:54 EDT from Nurb432

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Id think that would be a feature.  Reduce risk if your network is breached.

Mon Sep 19 2022 03:47:34 PM EDT from nristen

 

One of the new areas being worked on with XMPP is authentication including 2FA which concerns me especially around self hosted solutions because this can require connections to 3rd parties.

 

 



[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 13:32:12 EDT from darknetuser

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Anyway, separate topic: I have friends and family who I stay in touch

with mostly by SMS. I've been thinking about checking out Signal or

Telegram for the E2E encryption.
1) Have any of you used any of these things? Do you have any
preference, and why?
2) Also, between these two (or some other option I haven't heard of),

do you think I have a high chance of convincing non-technical people to

adopt?



In short:

Telegram has a lot more market penetration, and chances are you will find more of the people you want to talk to in Telegram. People who gets kicked out of mainstream platforms use Telegram for communicating. Activists use it, including activist groups I am involved with. The drawback is that their security model is not great. E2E encryption must be enabled explicitly by the user and everything you don't set manually to be secure is only client2server encrypted. Also their crypto primitives et all are not known for being free of issues.

Signal Messenger has close to zero market penetration. The upside is that developers are more security conscious: the security model is way saner than Telegrams and compromises are openly talked about - ie. it is known that the hash space used to conceal which people you talk to from the server has issues, but it is an openly discussed fact. It is probably less user-friendly and less flexible than Telegram, but it is still aimed at the digital illiterate market and I successfully use it to deal with dumb people no issues.

[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 13:33:58 EDT from darknetuser

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2022-09-15 16:29 from Nurb432
Why not run your own jabber protocol server? If they have to change
anyway and learn new stuff, at least its under your control.

Or go all out and something like jitsi.   


Jabber/XMPP require the users to know their acess credentials. MOst modern users cannot do that anymore.

I am not joking. I tried deploying a test Jabber service and it was a massive failure.

[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 13:35:18 EDT from darknetuser

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No, I want to return to my original ask. I have friends who, despite

my protests, use discord, even though they fully acknowledge that it's

Big Brother. Now some of them are finally coming around to accepting
that it actually matters, but their answer is to start using SMS more

instead of Discord. I just want to get us on something with encryption.

Baby steps.

Fun fact: there is a Signal implementation hich runs on SMS instead of data. It is called Silence and it is available on F-Droid

[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 16:32:04 EDT from Nurb432

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That is why i suggested he set it up for them.  After that, its zero effort.  ( hell i dont even know my login/pass on most things anymore. id have go to find it in my records )

And from above i dont think he cares about 'market penetration' its only for family, not finding new friends.  ( at least that is how i interpreted it )

Tue Sep 20 2022 01:33:58 PM EDT from darknetuser

Jabber/XMPP require the users to know their acess credentials. MOst modern users cannot do that anymore.

I am not joking. I tried deploying a test Jabber service and it was a massive failure.

 



[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 21:27:24 EDT from zelgomer

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And from above i dont think he cares about 'market penetration' its
only for family, not finding new friends.  ( at least that is how i
interpreted it )

I don't know, actually. I think I do care, because I think it'll be easier to sell if I can convince them it's popular and they can use it to talk to more than just me. But when I really think about it, I think I'm wrong to care.

Whatever my response may have seemed, I really appreciate all of the suggestions and I've taken them all to heart. I am looking closer at xmpp now as a serious option. I think this would be the ideal for me. On the other hand, this Silence thing is really compelling, and more like what I had in mind to start with. "It's a thing to encrypts our text messages" is a pretty easy pitch.

[#] Tue Sep 20 2022 21:32:20 EDT from zelgomer

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And thanks for all of the responses, by the way. I don't really know quite what I'm looking for, so this is exactly what I wanted - to start a discussion and see you guys debate the pros and cons. I got a lot of good tips to consider from this.

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