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Happy Manifest Destiny and Divine Providence Empire-Building Western European Patriarchy Day! Every bit of modern society is because of our great Westward Expansion. Women have the right to vote, the slaves are freed (in non-Middle Eastern/Non-African nations, anyhow), and the median level of wealth globally has never been higher in the history of mankind. I mean... thank you Arabs for Algebra and the concept of zero - we couldn't have gotten here without you. But otherwise - we've really carried the weight of the advance of civilization from the firearm to the printing press.
That is worth over-consuming a few turkeys with bread shoved up their butts and some green bean casserole to celebrate. Yeah Us! Imagine where the world might be without England, France and Spain - still living in constant warfare and misery without running water and modern healthcare.
Thu Nov 27 2025 19:54:37 UTC from Nurb432For those that celebrate:
Pleasant national deceased turkey consumption day.
Id rather celebrate its roots, the 'harvest holiday' existed long before the Europeans even knew this blob of land to exploit existed.
I mean - I'm ok with that - if you want to celebrate the harvest celebrations of the old world - that doesn't offend me.
What I want to know is why you think us bringing the greatest civilization in the history of mankind - something that surpasses Rome, Egypt, Babylonia, Sumer - in the civilization and reign of peace and prosperity it brought to ALL mankind... should be equated with "exploiting this blob of land."
We're here turning water running over a turbine in a dam, interpreted through a piece of sand and rock as zeroes and ones into persistent electronic messages - accessible instantly world-wide - someone in Japan can read this as soon as some one in Arizona or New Jersey or Amsterdam or Somalia - on a computer, or a phone, wired or wireless - like Star Trek Magic...
Because the Western European Patriarchy came and "exploited this blob of land," where, uninterrupted for 30,000 years, the indigenous people who lived here never figured out the wheel or a coherent universal written language.
Hating on the achievements of the West seems so... futile to me - especially among people who are a product of The West. There has been no better time in history to be dark skinned, or female, or gay, or any possible divergence from the median of what society has traditionally called acceptable. The White European Patriarchy has been the most progressive humanist society of all of recorded history - with unquestionably the furthest REACH in making those ideologies global. No previous society has had the complete global influence... that we know of anyhow. Maybe postdiluvian, prior to the younger dryas period - there was a more progressive global society that was erased in a global cataclysm.
But in recorded humanity - we're the peak achievement of progress. Did some terrible things happen along the way? Absolutely. Are we still better off as a species than at any time prior, in particular since the fall of Rome? Without a doubt.
So... why WOULDN'T we celebrate that?
Fri Nov 28 2025 14:30:56 UTC from Nurb432Id rather celebrate its roots, the 'harvest holiday' existed long before the Europeans even knew this blob of land to exploit existed.
With my viewpoint of modern mankind in general, that don't mean much.
I might ( might ) agree to use the term "Less bad than others" ( in some ways, other ways we are worse ) but I'd never use the term great if it involves people..
Sat Nov 29 2025 05:36:18 UTC from ParanoidDelusions
greatest civilization in the history of mankind -
I can't think of any quantifiable way our modern society is "in other ways worse," than any society that came before it. We are the most egalitarian - we have the most concern about human rights, the highest standards of living, the most class mobility, the best access to basic necessities of food and shelter, the best medical care, the most mobility, the highest level of global communication, the most scientific knowledge and understanding of how the universe works - and things just keep getting *better*.
Right now, fear of the Bad Orange Man has some in the LGBT and minority communities convinced that they live in the WORST time in history to be who they are - and that is ridiculous. There has been no better time in the history of the world to be born female, or gay, or non-white. Really there has been no better time to be born straight, white and male.
There may still be a lot we can do to improve as a species - I don't think this is necessarily the pinnacle of human achievement - but the whole, "the world would be a better place without us..." Who would appreciate it? The animals don't create art, don't try to capture moments to share emotions with future animals - your dog may appear quite content dozing in the sun on a perfect spring day - but the dog will never be able to articulate that feeling of contentment to another dog.
The world would be a pointless place without us.
Sat Nov 29 2025 15:36:51 UTC from Nurb432With my viewpoint of modern mankind in general, that don't mean much.
I might ( might ) agree to use the term "Less bad than others" ( in some ways, other ways we are worse ) but I'd never use the term great if it involves people..
Sat Nov 29 2025 05:36:18 UTC from ParanoidDelusions
greatest civilization in the history of mankind -
The inconvenient truth is that some cultures are objectively better than others.
I for one am thankful (to the Christian deity) that I am in the United States of America, thriving in the greatest society that has ever taken root on this planet. Every society builds on the foundations of its predecessors and peers; that much is certain. But if someone starts talking about "colonialism" and "patriarchy" I want to offend them using whatever words and phrases hurt them the most, because they deserve it.
GOD BLESS AMERICA.
And thank you to Sarah Hale and Norman Rockwell for normalizing the modern Thanksgiving feast as we know it.
www.citadel.org has been moved to a new connectivity provider. This also covers everything else running on that server, including code.citadel.org, search.citadel.org, www.bigbuttbear.com, etc.
If a few of you could give it a test, I'd be grateful for your feedback.
It ought to fly now. In the coming days I'll be moving Uncensored as well, if everything goes as planned.
ssl is dead ( hard stop timeout ). But regular seems to be doing ok again.
www.citadel.org has been moved to a new connectivity provider. This also covers everything else running on that server, including code.citadel.org, search.citadel.org, www.bigbuttbear.com, etc.
If a few of you could give it a test, I'd be grateful for your feedback.
It ought to fly now. In the coming days I'll be moving Uncensored as well, if everything goes as planned.
Ok i misread that.
I meant uncensored was doing better but SSL was toast, ( was yesterday too ). Ill go look at the rest for you.
Sorry, its still early for me, went back to bed after the dogs were fed/ate this morning.
ssl is dead ( hard stop timeout ). But regular seems to be doing ok again.
www.citadel.org has been moved to a new connectivity provider. This also covers everything else running on that server, including code.citadel.org, search.citadel.org, www.bigbuttbear.com, etc.
If a few of you could give it a test, I'd be grateful for your feedback.
It ought to fly now. In the coming days I'll be moving Uncensored as well, if everything goes as planned.
And doing the correct test ( sigh ).. ya it seems to be normal now.
I didn't try an actual easy install, but downloading the DB file flew, as one would expect.
www.citadel.org has been moved to a new connectivity provider. This also covers everything else running on that server, including code.citadel.org, search.citadel.org, www.bigbuttbear.com, etc.
If a few of you could give it a test, I'd be grateful for your feedback.
It ought to fly now. In the coming days I'll be moving Uncensored as well, if everything goes as planned.
Right now, fear of the Bad Orange Man has some in the LGBT and
minority communities convinced that they live in the WORST time
in history to be who they are - and that is ridiculous. There
has been no better time in the history of the world to be born
female, or gay, or non-white. Really there has been no better
time to be born straight, white and male.
We have lots of quality of life improvements, but we have lost a lot of the fundamental bases that make for a healthy society.
A family 80 years ago could own a vehicle, a house and raise a number of children on a single salary, and still be able to afford a month worth of yearly vacations while dealing with, say, a relative with severe disability.
We might have computers and cellphones but we are also becoming a generation of stressed men and depresed women who own nothing and have no family. I guess you could argue medical advances are so great they offset the disadvantages, but since medical care is so elusive these days I think that only counts if you have a shitload of money to burn, or you are the sort who plans ahead.
I agree if you are not "normal" then the 60s and 70s weren't much good, around here (because they would just lock you up), but if you counted as "normal" then you had al the rights you needed to become the best you could and live past the 90 years of old age.
Maybe I am not the best guy to have an opinion about this. I still cook with a cast iron pot in a fireplace like this was the 19th century.
And the attention span of a flea, and the knowledge base of a rock.
Tue Dec 02 2025 12:23:39 UTC from darknetuser
We might have computers and cellphones but we are also becoming a generation of stressed men and depresed women who own nothing and have no family.
Around here, if you were not like everyone else, you still thrived back then if you wanted to ( and into the 90s and 2000s ). Not sure if that is the case now with all the hate, but when i grew up no one cared as long as you treated others well.
And while i dont have a fireplace here, i still use cast iron pans.. does that count? :)
Tue Dec 02 2025 12:23:39 UTC from darknetuser
I agree if you are not "normal" then the 60s and 70s weren't much good, around here (because they would just lock you up), but if you counted as "normal" then you had al the rights you needed to become the best you could and live past the 90 years of old age.
Maybe I am not the best guy to have an opinion about this. I still cook with a cast iron pot in a fireplace like this was the 19th century.
2025-12-02 12:26 from Nurb432
And the attention span of a flea, and the knowledge base of a
rock.Tue Dec 02 2025 12:23:39 UTC from darknetuser
We might have computers and cellphones but we are also becoming
a generation of stressed men and depresed women who own nothing
and have no family.
Agreed, and I think that is specially ironic, because the availability of non-formal education is overwelming. You can learn so much online if you pick your sources carefuly, and you can order books in both digital and paper form and read until your eyes fall off. You don't get a degree from that which is probably the reason why nobody bothers.
These days libraries have become social centers.. "oh, we have books in the back too if you are interested after the xyz party up front" As a kid in the 70s and into the 80s i spent countless days in the backroom-stacks of our local library, and the one in our school. The one downtown, where i also spent countless hours.. was a huge building, several stories. All sorts of place to explore. They tore most of it out perhaps 15 years ago, and made it into one huge 'ballroom'. Sickening really. History, lost. Where i work now, there is a library attached to the campus. In the basement dock area id see historical books from the 1800s and 1900s being tossed every day. Frustratingly sad.
And you have a higher opinion of the unwashed masses than i do, i don't think its lack of degree that is preventing the effort, its lack of ability to stay focused to learn, and ability to learn anything of value. And while im veering into conspiracy theory, i think part of that was by design. The public schools are far different now, it seems like the children are being programmed for a specific future, not taught the basics and how to expand their horizons. Perhaps its just the nature of the normal societal collapse cycle, but it 'feels' orchestrated.
And all of this is only going to get worse as low end entry jobs vanish due to the next wave of automation that is coming soon. "why bother if i cant get a job at all, and the government will house/feed me while i can sit on my phone all day and watch tiktok" I saw the effects of automation in the 80s in the manufacturing plants i was working in doing IT stuff, it had a dramatic effect back then, just didn't get a lot of media attention.
Tue Dec 02 2025 13:02:39 UTC from darknetuser2025-12-02 12:26 from Nurb432
And the attention span of a flea, and the knowledge base of a
rock.
Tue Dec 02 2025 12:23:39 UTC from darknetuser
We might have computers and cellphones but we are also becoming
a generation of stressed men and depresed women who own nothing
and have no family.
Agreed, and I think that is specially ironic, because the availability of non-formal education is overwelming. You can learn so much online if you pick your sources carefuly, and you can order books in both digital and paper form and read until your eyes fall off. You don't get a degree from that which is probably the reason why nobody bothers.
2025-12-02 12:57 from Nurb432
Around here, if you were not like everyone else, you still
thrived back then if you wanted to ( and into the 90s and 2000s
). Not sure if that is the case now with all the hate, but
when i grew up no one cared as long as you treated others well.
And while i dont have a fireplace here, i still use cast iron
pans.. does that count? :)
Here we had degrees of "not being like everybody else".
It was fine to be gay until they caught you, then they shoved you into a cell.
Ethnic minorities had it a bit better. You could be openly ethnic if you wanted. Nobody would like you much but they would tolerate you, except communities had a zero-tolerance stance regarding ethnic felonies. If you stole a chicken you can bet Peacekeepers would force your whole clan to move to a different village because your kind was no longer wanted there.
But hey, it is an improvement becase two centuries ago we just genocided ethnic groups.
Political disidents get a treatment according to their degree of disidence. If you published a movie which contained a slight hint of criticism against the government they pretty much closed your studio. There was no real due process either so if you belonged to an actual terrorist organization and they caught you, they would tie you to a chair and beat the shit out of you until you confessed, then make you repeat the confession at trial. Terrorist groups here sucked very badly and still do so I can see why Peacekeepers were like that back in the day.
Nowadays you catch a terrorist, bring him to trial, and what the terrorist does is to threaten the judge and jury and tell them they are all going to be killed in the name of the cause.
Fun part is nobody here uses cast iron anymore. In fact I don't think cast iron was ever popular outside of certain niches - industrial workers doing long shifts out of home used big iron pots for the working crew. For fireplace cooking, the traditional thing to use was ceramic and stoneware.
And you have a higher opinion of the unwashed masses than i do,
i don't think its lack of degree that is preventing the effort,
its lack of ability to stay focused to learn, and ability to
learn anything of value. And while im veering into conspiracy
theory, i think part of that was by design. The public schools
are far different now, it seems like the children are being
programmed for a specific future, not taught the basics and how
to expand their horizons. Perhaps its just the nature of the
normal societal collapse cycle, but it 'feels' orchestrated.
IMO a high issue is that so many jobs require official qualifications, and learning on your own does not provide them, so why bother.
I mean, it does make less sense to learn how to operate a TIC wielder if you can't get one, or you are not allowed to do any work with it, unless you undergo a basic TIC course and a different course for every material or position you want to wield. It is crazy, some trades require you to have two or three certifications to do commercial work.
Heck, when I walked out of college it turned out my degree was only one piece required for jobs. MOAR was needed. Which is fun because after you undergo an official course you learn nothing, you are just paying to get a paper.
They still sell them at the local grocery and farm stores here. Hell i think even Walmart sells the stuff ( rarely go in one, but i think i saw some in their kitchen area once ). Not sure how many people actually use them for cooking and not just a 'status symbol', but its enough buy them to keep them on shelves, which is nice. I dont need new ones often since i do try to take care of them, but im not perfect.. and running down the street every 15 years or so to pick a replacement out in person is better than mail order, even if its the 'correct' brand.
And ya, i can understand other parts of the planet was far less 'accepting' of people that are not 'standard'. Thankfully i didn't grow up in that sort of environment, either societal or parenting.
Tue Dec 02 2025 13:24:10 UTC from darknetuserFun part is nobody here uses cast iron anymore. In fact I don't think cast iron was ever popular outside of certain niches - industrial workers doing long shifts out of home used big iron pots for the working crew. For fireplace cooking, the traditional thing to use was ceramic and stoneware.