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2025-06-10 18:22 from Nurb432
Subject: Long live X11
Good for them. A project to save X11, and flip the bird to
wayland. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver
Seems their work has been censored by the likes of redhat and
such.. No surprise, and i knew it was taking place, but just
reading some of their comments even more politics and 'walled
garden' going on than i thought.
Thanks for the link. The guys at Tiny Core Linux will be happy.
I don't hate Wayland too much but it sends the same world domination vibes other modern Linux subsystems do.
ewww Rust.
Check out the screen shots in the RedoxOS blog post: https://www.redox-os.org/news/this-month-250531/ and it's written completely in Rust!
i think i have said it before so sorry for repeating. My issue with wayland is much like with SystemD. its a 'monolithic desktop oriented blob' which is anti-UNIX philosophy and a security risk, and in the case of wayand, its not network centric, like X is. It also has the potential of becoming nearly proprietary in concept, as in the end it locks people out. Might as well just use windows.
Sure, i totally agree that X could use some improvements and some modernization, as nothing is perfect and it IS old.. but tossing it out with the bathwater was the wrong thing go do, in my opinion. Much like should have been done with init. improve, not toss. tho we all know the systemD project was designed to destroy Linux from within. That said, i dont think wayland is an intentional destruction of Linux, and more about control of it, but it does destroy the UNIX foundations on which it was built.
I don't hate Wayland too much but it sends the same world domination vibes other modern Linux subsystems do.
Wayland is a much needed imporovement. The alarming revelation is that the custodians of X.org, which has turned out to be a cartel led by Red Hat, have been actively suppressing any improvement of X.org for several years now. Merge requests have been left unanswered, bugs have been left unfixed, etc. Enrico Weilgelt got frustrated with this and forked the project in an attempt to finally modernize it. In the long run everything will likely be on Wayland anyway, but it seems obvious that if there's someone who wants to maintain the old system, you'd be crazy not to let them, right?
In response, the Red Hat led cartel deleted the project, deleted all the open merge requests, banned Enrico Weilgelt, and embarked upon a character assassination effort all over the Internet. Big Tech funds the mainstream tech press, so hacks like The Register simply focused on the character assassination part of it: Weilgelt is an "anti-vaxxer" and "anti-DEI" and "climate denier" and all the other bullshit that the political left uses to smear people who refuse to sit down and shut up when oppressed. If you want to get the whole story, the best source is (of course) Bryan Lunduke, who has of late become the undisputed champion of truth. So much so, that in many places you can be banned for merely speaking his name.
Now that the Streisand Effect has kicked in, the Red Hat led cartel has responded by ending support for X11 in GNOME cold dead. Some distributions (such as Ubuntu) were getting ready for that because the developers have been making noise about that for some time now. Now they have to, because it's officially ending.
I've always hated GNOME because it was created to be divisive. It continues its tradition.
And so, George Orwell was right again:
Open source: "All animals are equal."
Red Hat: "But some are more equal than others."
Check out the screen shots in the RedoxOS blog post: https://www.redox-os.org/news/this-month-250531/ and it's written completely in Rust!
I wish them well. Another credible operating system could be an escape hatch for many if Big Tech gets out of control with Linux.
On the other hand, I see tons of red flags:
* Microkernel architecture (Why hasn't GNU Hurd gone mainstream yet? Why has Windows retreated from microkernel?)
* MIT license -- a favorite of companies who incubate in open source, then when they are successful fork a proprietary version and abandon the open source version
* Rust's code of conduct which exists to ban anyone who doesn't bow to San Francisco sociopolitical values
Feels like we could be on the verge of another diaspora like we were in the early 1990's when the movement started. And maybe that's how it will always be, an endless cycle of expansions and contractions, a pendulum swinging endlessly between rebellions against too much power concentrating in one place and consolidation of the best efforts of the community.
Agreed on Gnome. And Ubuntu is no better than RH as far as im concerned.
But, i do think a valid fork to keep X11 alive is a good thing. Sure, RH and other are trying to kill it, but that is not a reason to abandon it, to me. Keep the fight alive. keep flipping them the bird.
Wayland is a much needed imporovement. The alarming revelation is that the custodians of X.org, which has turned out to be a cartel led by Red Hat, have been actively suppressing any improvement of X.org for several years now. Merge requests have been left unanswered, bugs have been left unfixed, etc. Enrico Weilgelt got frustrated with this and forked the project in an attempt to finally modernize it. In the long run everything will likely be on Wayland anyway, but it seems obvious that if there's someone who wants to maintain the old system, you'd be crazy not to let them, right?
In response, the Red Hat led cartel deleted the project, deleted all the open merge requests, banned Enrico Weilgelt, and embarked upon a character assassination effort all over the Internet. Big Tech funds the mainstream tech press, so hacks like The Register simply focused on the character assassination part of it: Weilgelt is an "anti-vaxxer" and "anti-DEI" and "climate denier" and all the other bullshit that the political left uses to smear people who refuse to sit down and shut up when oppressed. If you want to get the whole story, the best source is (of course) Bryan Lunduke, who has of late become the undisputed champion of truth. So much so, that in many places you can be banned for merely speaking his name.
Now that the Streisand Effect has kicked in, the Red Hat led cartel has responded by ending support for X11 in GNOME cold dead. Some distributions (such as Ubuntu) were getting ready for that because the developers have been making noise about that for some time now. Now they have to, because it's officially ending.
I've always hated GNOME because it was created to be divisive. It continues its tradition.
And so, George Orwell was right again:
Open source: "All animals are equal."
Red Hat: "But some are more equal than others."
Rust issues with that project aside for just a second ( which does mean it sucks... ), Id rather see people pour their efforts into Plan9. Why create what is there already? It just needs more people to bring it out into the open.. it has decades of history.. and is more true to UNIX philosophy than anything else today. ( including modern *bsd )
And they have a twisted sense of humor over in that camp. LoL.
( and id say that its already out of control.. the penguin is dead )
I wish them well. Another credible operating system could be an escape hatch for many if Big Tech gets out of control with Linux.
Sigh. 9Front, not Plan9. Plan 9 effectively died when AT&T was broken up.
Hmm clearly before my time. Need to show me that sometime if its that great.
Sigh. 9Front, not Plan9. Plan 9 effectively died when AT&T was broken up.
Looks like OpenMandriva is switching to x11libre, and its already in their testing version. And something called Vipnix Linux has switched already. Arch Linux has packages built ..
The momentum has started.
They have always been good about maintaining strong support for both Wayland and X11, and they're a distribution that explicitly resists the politicization of open source software.
In fact, I'm on my OpenMandriva machine right now and it's currently using ... (checks) ... X11. As I've said before, it's an absolutely gorgeous implementation of KDE Plasma. The font rendering in particular is so much nicer on this 11 year old laptop than it is on any of my newer hardware running Kubuntu or Windows.
Might be time to try to make my own distro. But, drivers. always drivers.
Wish Andy never shut down the VSTa project. I know why he did, but it was a wonderful thing.
Or not i guess. Only reason i had that desktop out was to rip that damn DVD i couldn't find on DHT. Its not like i really use much anymore so i guess its not THAT important whatever linux does, even if it totally implodes.. do i care?. And ya, that vm server of mine is still up, but its pretty worthless, all its really doing is pretending to be a NAS.
Might be time to try to make my own distro. But, drivers. always drivers.
Wish Andy never shut down the VSTa project. I know why he did, but it was a wonderful thing.
I'm pretty impressed with MX Linux these days too. It's Debian underneath but pretty and much easier to deal with.[
Building my own distro? Been there, done that. Started with Linux From Scratch. Nurb, if you haven't tried Linux From Scratch before, give it a go. It will very rapidly cure your desire to roll your own :)
Actually i have messed with Linux from scratch. I also still clearly remember the pain of boot/root from the old days, and hand editing bits to get it to boot. I also have messed with embedded Linux, some of which is nearly the same as LFS. Ya, its a battle, but sometimes its worth it.
The power-book i got from the office, its not just wifi/bt that is broke.( and i agree, dongle, done. ) If you don't have special drivers even the freaking keyboard work work. Id be ok with it if the special function key touch pad/display thing does not work, but the basic keyboard/mouse also breaks? That is freaking insane. ( and carrying around a usb keyboard, nope )
Oh and forgot to mention. I had another slightly older powerbook, with the same wifi/bt issues but before they added that stupid ass keyboard. Linux was a pain to get to work for WiFi, but ChromeFlex, installed just fine and had proper drivers baked in.
And yes, i know "ewwwwww google and ewwwww chromeos" but not all of google is evil. And its got a Linux subsystem (debian) you can run instead of the chromeOS side. For fun i even ran kvm and had windows and osx on it..
2025-06-16 23:02 from Nurb432
Subject: Re: Long live X11
Might be time to try to make my own distro. But, drivers.
always drivers.
Wish Andy never shut down the VSTa project. I know why he did,
but it was a wonderful thing.
Making a practical distribution on your own sucks cocks.
I know I repeat myself quite a bit but you could consider Tiny Core Linux as a base for your custom solutions. The base components are simple and the thing does not have fancy services interfering.
I also like that KISS tries to do. You can in thory use it as a base for any crazy thing you want to do, and some people does. There is an X11 fork XD
Building my own distro? Been there, done that. Started with Linux
From Scratch. Nurb, if you haven't tried Linux From Scratch before,
give it a go. It will very rapidly cure your desire to roll your own :)
I don't know, Linux From Scratch sounds fun but not practical. It is like writing novels about undead horse robots. Doing it is a blast but you won't get anything else out of it.
I thought these days the way to go when you need a custom solution that resembles a regular distribution is to use Gentoo, since you can define the behavior of nearly every component.
I wonder if people would have complained less about Wayland if they had simply called it X12.