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[#] Mon May 03 2021 19:07:52 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Japan's social system is racist AF by Western standards. 

And... it is *idyllic* with a super strong sense of national identity and people fully invested not just in themselves, but their culture. The worst part of visiting Tokyo is the realization that it is unattainable for a gaijin - because if they accepted you, it erodes the very quality that makes it so attractive. 

And Japan is pretty much "NO" on changing this about their society. They just are very quiet and hope to get ignored in their practice of this totally isolationist, xenophobic social order. No refugees, no immigrants... they'll make little token efforts to act like they're with the program - but they're not, at all. And it works *brilliantly* for their society. They think they're better than all the other cultures of the world. 

And they probably are. 

They make Israel look like a blended state full of western style tolerance and diversity values, for sure. 

I was on the subway, looking across from one end to the other, at almost 5'11", one of the tallest persons on board. At the very opposite end there was a really tall back dude. We met eyes, and he gave me a nod, and a smile that was like, "Now you know how it feels, huh?" I don't think I'm projecting. There was something in his nod and smile that said, "Yes... this. This is what it is like." 

I've travelled all over the world, and the hilarious thing is that the narrative is that we're the most divisive, xenophobic, hostile nation on the planet. Every nation I go to, there are immigrants there who *hate* the nation they are in and dream of moving to the United States. We try to limit the influx of a flood of the LEAST desirable immigrants from the worst nations that we share borders with - and we get called racist - but MOST of the nations of the world *are* completely racist, xenophobic, with huge ethnic division and very limited ethnic diversity. 

Japan isn't an apartheid system because they don't even really make an ATTEMPT to accommodate anyone but native Japanese. In India, you can only be *born* a Hindu - you can't convert, you can't marry in. They'll let you become a Hare Krishna - but even they know that is just a cult for white hippies who wish they had been born Asian-Indian. 

Yeah... getting butthurt because I think Israel is an apartheid system (and it is...) is absolutely thinking that this is the WORST thing I could think about a nation. It isn't. But some of the nations that are the "worst" in this nation - would be the best nations to be born into - and I can understand why they resist changing a thing - and agree with them - if they are forced to adopt our values on these issues, it will ruin exactly what makes their nations strong. 

 

Mon May 03 2021 17:24:14 EDT from LoanShark

I'm with triL on this.

I have no malice towards PD just because he thinks the apartheid comparison is apt. Because he has no malice towards Israel. PD, your worldview is somewhat accepting of bare-knuckle politics. You're like, if I may paraphrase, "Israel has an apartheid-like system, but they can do that. That's life."

And that is exactly the point.

Japan is full of Japanese, and I can tell you from experience travelling there, that they do not treat gaijin fairly at all times and in all contexts. But we don't call them an apartheid state.

Ireland is full of Irish, and they have an immigration policy that explicitly favors the return of ethnic Irish, but we don't call them an apartheid state.

Italy is full of Italians, and they have an immigration policy that explicitly favors the return of ethnic Italians, but we don't call them an apartheid state.

Meanwhile, the UN member nations that voted for the UNHRC "apartheid blacklist" are mostly tyrannies who are trying to distract from their atrocious human-rights record.

So it goes.

Israel does one thing inside the green line. If you're inside the green line, you're a citizen of jewish majority state organized along reasonably Western principles. Like I said, I'm with triL.

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 19:26:25 EDT from LoanShark

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2021-05-03 19:07 from ParanoidDelusions
Japan's social system is racist AF by Western standards. 

And... it is *idyllic* with a super strong sense of national identity

and people fully invested not just in themselves, but their culture.

The worst part of visiting Tokyo is the realization that it is
unattainable for a gaijin - because if they accepted you, it erodes
the very quality that makes it so attractive. 

I visited Tokyo in 2009 if I remember correctly. Met up with a rock climber guy who is well-known on an East Coast climbing forum out here. At the time he'd been living out there long enough to raise some teenage daughters (mother is Japanese.)

The daughters went to an International School.

And him -- he's a lawyer I think. An American expat. Worked for corporations in JP for 20 years or more I guess. But the process is not easy. You have to pass language tests, and they are not easy. If there aren't any de jure ethnicity limitations on immigration, this is a de facto one, like a test that's designed to be hard.

He's back in NYC now. I haven't asked for details but I have to assume he got divorced and came back to America.


So attainable, then then, in the long term NOT attainable, know what I mean?

[#] Mon May 03 2021 19:38:13 EDT from LoanShark

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They'll let you become a Hare Krishna - but even they know that is
just a cult for white hippies who wish they had been born
Asian-Indian. 

That's the Rajneeshis in a nutshell. At first it was an earnest money-grab, with a lot of Rolls-Royces for show. Now it's just a tourism money-grab aimed at white hippies. Travel to Pune sometime. Hang out in the Osho ashram. I hear the sex parties are wild.

I spent a month in Pune, but the Osho Meditation Center was not for me.

[#] Mon May 03 2021 21:51:18 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Well... that is the point. It is a token effort so they can claim they're open to immigration - but their standards all but guarantee that their nation will remain homogenous. And a homogenous nation is a united nation - and a united nation reinforces cultural values - which is why EVERYONE smokes, but no one smokes on the streets, and why no one litters, even though there are garbage cans, and Tokyo is one of the only large world cities where you won't see anyone j-walking, even if the street is deserted of cars - except stupid tourists. When everyone looks alike and has the same values - it is easy to maintain cultural standards like this. Phoenix was a very clean, very ordered US metropolis. The L.A. is starting to creep in, in direct proportion to the number of Californians coming in. 

But Asians are pretty racist even as immigrants. I dated a lot of Japanese and Chinese girls growing up - and ONE of them actually told me, casually, "my dad says it is OK to date you, but never to marry someone white." 

She said it knowing it was offensive, and did it to be cruel, not out of innocence or because it hurt her to think that her dad would never accept us. We both knew we weren't ever going to get married - that we were just having fun. 

The other ones, though - it was still there, it was just unspoken. But as a white guy, at least the Asian fathers didn't mind their daughters kind of having their fun with me... like a toy or a pet. :) 

I was pretty much OK with it, too - and they were always nice, polite and generous with me to my face. Of course, because I am a straight white male I can't feel discrimination or racism... so... there was always that. 

:) 

 

 

Mon May 03 2021 19:26:25 EDT from LoanShark
2021-05-03 19:07 from ParanoidDelusions
Japan's social system is racist AF by Western standards. 

And... it is *idyllic* with a super strong sense of national identity

and people fully invested not just in themselves, but their culture.

The worst part of visiting Tokyo is the realization that it is
unattainable for a gaijin - because if they accepted you, it erodes
the very quality that makes it so attractive. 

I visited Tokyo in 2009 if I remember correctly. Met up with a rock climber guy who is well-known on an East Coast climbing forum out here. At the time he'd been living out there long enough to raise some teenage daughters (mother is Japanese.)

The daughters went to an International School.

And him -- he's a lawyer I think. An American expat. Worked for corporations in JP for 20 years or more I guess. But the process is not easy. You have to pass language tests, and they are not easy. If there aren't any de jure ethnicity limitations on immigration, this is a de facto one, like a test that's designed to be hard.

He's back in NYC now. I haven't asked for details but I have to assume he got divorced and came back to America.


So attainable, then then, in the long term NOT attainable, know what I mean?

 



[#] Mon May 03 2021 22:02:54 EDT from zooer

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Mon May 03 2021 07:26:25 PM EDT from LoanShark
 raise some teenage daughters (mother is Japanese.)

I have heard that bi-racial citizens are treated worse than gaijin are treated. 

My niece lived in Japan for a few years as a JET. (Japanese English Teacher)



[#] Mon May 03 2021 23:04:11 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Interestingly, I feel like European caucasians tend to regard biracial Asians as more attractive and desirable than straight caucasians or Asians. 

I wonder if there is something psychological in the pecking order of race - because I often hear black people talk about how attractive biracial black girls are - but I tend to find they have features I find less attractive than a straight caucasian. 

And - I also, honestly - feel that my lack of attraction in general to black women is nature, not nurture or learned behavior. When I was a kid, even in elementary school - black girls tended to get crushes on me. I liked them as people - but I never had any chemistry to them. 

It amazes me that the same people who say that gay people have no choice will call you racist or say you are body shaming if you're not attracted to a particular ethnicity or a particular body type. 

I was just *born* this way. As soon as I became attracted to the opposite sex - and I became attracted pretty young... like... 3rd grade was my first "girlfriend" and... I didn't know what I wanted to do... but I knew it was different than why I had guy friends...  I knew what my "type" was. 

There is this weird movement that we should deny the aesthetic qualities that we find arousing and attractive and just be attracted to people for who they are inside. Who they are inside matters too, of course. I've known pretty girls that made themselves ugly to me just by their attitude, and I've found myself growing attracted to girls that originally I was disinterested in just by physical quality - but in general, I'd rather have the full package - someone I like as a person and who I find physically attractive. Fortunately, I have that. 

Mon May 03 2021 22:02:54 EDT from zooer

 

Mon May 03 2021 07:26:25 PM EDT from LoanShark
 raise some teenage daughters (mother is Japanese.)

I have heard that bi-racial citizens are treated worse than gaijin are treated. 

My niece lived in Japan for a few years as a JET. (Japanese English Teacher)



 



[#] Tue May 04 2021 06:51:06 EDT from zooer

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Mon May 03 2021 11:04:11 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

 When I was a kid, even in elementary school - black girls tended to get crushes on me.

That is because you are pretty fly for a white guy.



[#] Tue May 04 2021 09:12:56 EDT from LoanShark

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But Asians are pretty racist even as immigrants. I dated a lot of
Japanese and Chinese girls growing up - and ONE of them actually told

me, casually, "my dad says it is OK to date you, but never to marry
someone white." 

She said it knowing it was offensive, and did it to be cruel, not out

of innocence or because it hurt her to think that her dad would never

accept us. We both knew we weren't ever going to get married - that
we were just having fun. 

The other ones, though - it was still there, it was just unspoken.
But as a white guy, at least the Asian fathers didn't mind their
daughters kind of having their fun with me... like a toy or a pet.
:) 

I was pretty much OK with it, too - and they were always nice, polite

and generous with me to my face. Of course, because I am a straight

white male I can't feel discrimination or racism... so... there was
always that. 

Teasing cruelty is a turn-on for some girls... anyway, back on topic, yes, if one more female Asian coworker baits me into a conversation with a line like "do you think reverse racism exists?"...


Yes, this actually happened to me once. Apropos of nothing. I thought it was a pretty inappropriate conversation, but I answered honestly: "yes it does." She got kinda pissed: "but you're talking about INDIVIDUALS and I'm talking about [something-something about systemic racism.]"

Whatever. The next time somebody wants to bait me that way, my response will likely be simple and direct: "a Person of Color tried to kill me once."

(Which is the honest truth, by the way. I think I mentioned last September's vehicle accident? It was road rage.)

[#] Tue May 04 2021 09:16:10 EDT from LoanShark

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I have heard that bi-racial citizens are treated worse than gaijin
are treated. 

My niece lived in Japan for a few years as a JET. (Japanese English
Teacher)

My own experience traveling in the Tokyo area for a week was OK but not great.

I have one high school classmate and one college classmate (and his American wife) who have lived in Japan for years/decades. Could ask them about their experiences, I suppose, but I have not. (I'll bet one of both of these folks are JETs - it's a pretty common thing to go over there and teach english.)

[#] Tue May 04 2021 09:21:22 EDT from LoanShark

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*one or both

[#] Tue May 04 2021 10:23:21 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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I've got the 31 on my shoulder to prove it. ;) 

 

Tue May 04 2021 06:51:06 EDT from zooer

 

Mon May 03 2021 11:04:11 PM EDT from ParanoidDelusions

 When I was a kid, even in elementary school - black girls tended to get crushes on me.

That is because you are pretty fly for a white guy.



 



[#] Tue May 04 2021 10:36:01 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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So, *Asians* as a whole have been pretty resistant to SJW ideologies. Hell, the Chinese even have a word, "Baizou" to describe shallow Western Progressive identity politics. 

Part of it is that both the Chinese and Japanese are super-xenophobic and each is convinced they're the most superior culture on the planet - but because they're hyper-intelligent as societies, the kind of have the protestant value of not *talking* to inferior people about how much better they are. They *know* they are, and they know that inferior people and cultures will not be able to comprehend their inferiority. There is no value in explaining to a dumbass why he is a dumbass - he won't understand. :) 

East Indian Asians tend to be more susceptible to it (SJWism) - and East Indian women more than the men.

And yes, this girl was the kind who got off on a bit of psychological cruelness.  

The people of Japan are humble, friendly, helpful, and tolerant. They're a very service-oriented culture and of course honor is a very high value. They want you to have a great time in their country as a tourist, spend lots of money... 

But they want you to go back to the place you come from once you're done - because you don't understand all the things you love about their culture when you visit, and if you stayed, you would ruin those things. :) 

We were at the Emperor's gardens, trying to get a picture of his fortress, and a bunch of Chinese tourists just walked in front of us, oblivious, while we were trying to frame up a picture. Pushy and unaware (and probably unaware, but uncaring...)

Our Japanese tour-guide, this sweet little lady, was horrified - and came up to us frantically apologizing... But most important, she wanted us to understand that the rude Asians were *Chinese*, not Japanese. The way she said it dripped with animosity and contempt. 

I nodded knowingly and responded, "I know, you can always tell the Chinese from the Japanese anywhere in the world, they don't know how to behave in a civil manner in crowds and they can't queue." 

LOL. Our little shared moment of anti-Chinese racism won her instantly over, and we were her favorite guests for the rest of the tour. ;) 

But... it is also *true*... If you're in Heathrow and there are Asians pushing into the line wherever they can squeeze in - they're Chinese or Pacific Rim Asians - not Japanese. The Japanese don't do that - but Chinese and Pacific Rim cultures really don't conceptualize queues - EVERY event is festival seating when there are a billion+ of you. 

 

 



[#] Tue May 04 2021 11:10:37 EDT from LoanShark

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2021-04-20 10:12 from ParanoidDelusions
I mean - these guys weren't wearing the robes and the Yamika. They
were wearing wife-beaters and baggy chinos with wallet chains. The
haircuts and the curls were the only thing that told you they weren't
sunburned, redheaded, pasty midwestern trailer-park rednecks. Shave
any of their heads, and you would have mistaken them for skinheads.
Honestly - I felt like the only major difference between them and a
gang of skins *were* the haircuts. But I agree, I also got the
absolute impression that it was more about economic class. These
weren't members of a family of dentists and jewelers.  They were not
affluent and privileged. I think *this* is generally the actual root
of most ethnic stereotypes. It is poverty and the resulting cycle of
ignorance and desperation that is usually the root cause - and people

just look at a group in that demographics and ascribe it to the most
physically obvious trait that group has in common - *except* for
"white people". We assume that middle-class comfort and basic
education is the *baseline* for white people and that the anomaly are
the ones who are poor and ignorant with white people. But for every
other group, every non-member assumes it is ethnicity and race that
causes a BASELINE of poverty and ignorance. 

We keep worrying about a race issue, when really it is an economics
and opportunity issue. 

All this is not wrong, but it's a specifically American (dare I say Californian, LOL just teasing) perspective.

Take it to the Middle East (or, say, Japan, as you point out elsewhere) and it becomes clear that, over there, everything *is* a race and/or religion issue. Although yes, some people would be a lot more chill if some people had a lot more money and position.

[#] Tue May 04 2021 20:17:56 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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Guilty as charged. ;) 

On the second half - you're agreeing that the rest of the world is actually - in fact, more racist and xenophobic than the United States, right? 

 

Tue May 04 2021 11:10:37 EDT from LoanShark
All this is not wrong, but it's a specifically American (dare I say Californian, LOL just teasing) perspective.

Take it to the Middle East (or, say, Japan, as you point out elsewhere) and it becomes clear that, over there, everything *is* a race and/or religion issue. Although yes, some people would be a lot more chill if some people had a lot more money and position.

 



[#] Wed May 05 2021 13:52:52 EDT from LoanShark

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2021-05-04 20:17 from ParanoidDelusions
Guilty as charged. ;) 

On the second half - you're agreeing that the rest of the world is
actually - in fact, more racist and xenophobic than the United
States, right? 

I don't remember *dis*agreeing with that.

This is a pattern I've been increasingly aware of for a while now. America is a melting pot with classically liberal leanings. Apart from a few bigots, we're relatively comfortable with the end result of the melting pot. And I do mean "relatively"; you could point out 1,000 examples of racial conflict within the last 10 years and it wouldn't invalidate the underlying point.

Where we run into trouble is when we start projecting our values onto foreign locations & cultures that emphatically do not share them... quite the opposite.

The Soviet Union had much the same problem with projecting its values--delegitimizing and demonizing any government that wasn't a left wing socialist multicultural utopia.

Tying back to the topic of this room, which is the Israel room, the one-state utopia has already been tried, under British rule, and it failed.

[#] Wed May 05 2021 16:05:32 EDT from ParanoidDelusions

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So, this seems to be a human nature thing - which we've alluded to in this room. It breaks down along much smaller regional lines. New Yorkers think their experience with Jewish communities, or black communities, or any community, in universal throughout the United States. The people in Georgia think the same thing, as do the people in California. 

And though there may be similarities - there are so many unique factors in play between these 3 regions that the challenges and issues - and therefore solutions - are all different from region to region. 

"Because it worked here, it should work there," is a human response to many challenges, and causes a lot of human suffering. 

 

Wed May 05 2021 13:52:52 EDT from LoanShark
2021-05-04 20:17 from ParanoidDelusions
Guilty as charged. ;) 

On the second half - you're agreeing that the rest of the world is
actually - in fact, more racist and xenophobic than the United
States, right? 

I don't remember *dis*agreeing with that.

This is a pattern I've been increasingly aware of for a while now. America is a melting pot with classically liberal leanings. Apart from a few bigots, we're relatively comfortable with the end result of the melting pot. And I do mean "relatively"; you could point out 1,000 examples of racial conflict within the last 10 years and it wouldn't invalidate the underlying point.

Where we run into trouble is when we start projecting our values onto foreign locations & cultures that emphatically do not share them... quite the opposite.

The Soviet Union had much the same problem with projecting its values--delegitimizing and demonizing any government that wasn't a left wing socialist multicultural utopia.

Tying back to the topic of this room, which is the Israel room, the one-state utopia has already been tried, under British rule, and it failed.

 



[#] Fri May 07 2021 19:43:10 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar

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East Indian Asians tend to be more susceptible to it (SJWism) - and East Indian women more than the men.

You have to understand how Indians think.  It isn't racism; it is classism.

Everyone knows that the caste system in India still exists, even though it was officially dissolved, it's still there.

When an Indian living in the west meets a native westerner, they treat the westerner as "other" -- which maps to "other caste".  Anyone who has worked with Indians knows this.  They either treat you very respectfully (because they see you as a higher caste) or like garbage (because they see you as a lower caste).

 

And no, Israel is nothing like Japan.  Japan does not have resident terrorists who believe that Japan is "theirs".



[#] Mon May 10 2021 11:58:53 EDT from LoanShark

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Everyone knows that the caste system in India still exists, even
though it was officially dissolved, it's still there.

I have this one friend, a Tamilian, who talks about the "racial caste system" that he believes exists in the US.


I'm just like... I dunno, man.

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