Plus those evil Zionists stole the land from the Palestinians!
(never mind that people who say that have an assumption that there was a settled 'Palestinian' land and the Jews came in en masse and took it away...)
these days you even are called an antisemit if you say that some jew didn't properly use toilet paper.
Thu Jan 05 2012 11:09:16 EST from dothebart @ Uncensoredthese days you even are called an antisemit if you say that some jew didn't properly use toilet paper.
Why would you care how someone used toilet paper, you antisemite?!
In other news, I saw a video suggesting that the British queen has become so old that her pussy is now haunted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ESgHRI5HI
whatever other college you choose. If we instead give that money to
other people so that *they* can go to college, then we would not be
able to give it to you....and you would likely either have to attend
whatever school the state was willing to pay for or work your way
through."
If her son had difficulty comprehending this sort of thing, then he was in good company, or at least historically notable company: Karl Marx, Joseph Stalin...
Let me start by saying that I agree with your conclusion, Ladyhawke, but not entirely the process by which it was arrived. So at the risk of being a pedantic twit, let me see if I can put the discussion on a slightly different footing.
The leftest of leftists, like the son in this case it seems, don't have a problem with the redistribution of wealth; they point out that public goods can be useful and even moral. They might point out that we should invest in our own future by providing education to all. They might ignore any argument that is based merely on an absolutist interpretation of property rights or the idea that redistribution of wealth is universally bad.
And why not? Clearly education is a public good, and there is broad consensus across all political parties that we should provide education as a public good at least through the K-12 level. Why should college be any different?
Well, because college *is* different. College is in many respect the first school of hard knocks for smart high school graduates, the first introduction to what real life is all about. Not everyone is cut out for college.
But nearly anybody who isn't emotionally disturbed or faced with a severely unstable family situation can graduate high school. The mentally retarded can graduate high school.
Unlike in Soviet Russia, where The Party finds you, in America you have to find your own party. In this country there is a broad bipartisan consensus that attempting to provide a blanket guarantee of "the good life" for everyone is neither desirable nor feasible. In this country we value personal responsibility. In this country we value economic transactions that give people "skin in the game" and incentives. Employees of Fidelity must hold Fidelity stock--in order that they not make decisions that compromise the company's integrity. College students should also have "skin in the game"--because college is dreadfully expensive, and those students who are going to not study but mess around and party or whatever should do so on their own nickel rather than wasting the time and energy and resources of their parents or society at large.
Ultimately, there are two types of people: those who should go to college, and those who shouldn't. And at the end of the day, there is only one person who knows which category a student falls into: the student himself. And unfortunately, the only way that we have figured out how to extract an honest answer to that question from the student is to threaten to stick him with the bill.
Of course, none of this is to say that the cost of college hasn't been rising beyond all reasonable sanity...
Yeah, I have a soft spot for education, admittedly.
But then, I also tend to believe that you can get an education without having to go through college or trade schools. If you are determined enough, you can probably learn whatever you want to learn about any topic you want, enough to garner the attention of others who also work in your targetted field.
It's just a tad easier with structured lessons.
So, if you're poor, and you want to pull yourself out of the poor cycle, you'll have to work a little harder than the son of a middle-class guy who had a few advantages. Life isn't exactly fair, but it is what it is.
Thu Jan 05 2012 10:13:44 AM EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored
Oh I hate the Romans.
Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order ... what have the Romans done for us?
Loanshark,
Not sure that I agree that the only person who can tell whether college is a good choice for a person is that person himself, but I essentially agree with most of what you said.
It's been my experience that in most cases people have a tendancy to assign a lower value to things they receive for free. Even a nominal fee can increase the value of something in most people's minds. That said - I also have to agree with fleebs that the cost of college today is completely out of control (private secondary school, as well), not only from the perspective of availability and affordability - but even from the perspective of value proportionality.
Sat Jan 07 2012 11:52:26 AM EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored
Ultimately, there are two types of people: those who should go to college, and those who shouldn't. And at the end of the day, there is only one person who knows which category a student falls into: the student himself. And unfortunately, the only way that we have figured out how to extract an honest answer to that question from the student is to threaten to stick him with the bill.
I think that because of how college is perceived, most 18-year-olds have no idea whether college is for them or not.
College counseling in high schools needs to be way different.
It's not even just a matter of intelligence. I don't think that low IQ is the reason I failed miserably at college and took 6 years to finish.
If it were, I probably wouldn't have kept a 90+ average in grad school.
I simply wasn't ready for college, and I wsn't mentally stable enough for it. I think countries that have gap year (army or national service) do their kids a great service.
The gap year isn't enough of itself. Has to consist of basic training and maybe being shot at with live rounds.
I would say this is pretty much a necessary condition for college to seem a little less of a challenge and a little more desirable for some who were not otherwise inclined to take it seriously.
I'd take it seriously.
I think some people need something more than just a year to decide whether or not they're ready for college. Something like civil service (military service or something analogous) would help fulfill a peculiar need that we have in the United States for transitioning people from high school to college or trade school.
in .de we have had military & civilan services (like in elderly resorts or hospital) which were just stopped for a migration to a total professional army.
so while the army was more about in the mood, ok no more making people dig through the mud that don't want to, we' re fine with this...
the civilian services were a little afraid of not being able to fullfill their jobs, so a voluntary social year was created.
The transition seems to have worked well,
I think its a good thing to have the young do that year to develop their social skills for highschool and so on.
Mon Jan 09 2012 12:52:08 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored
I'd take it seriously.
I think some people need something more than just a year to decide whether or not they're ready for college. Something like civil service (military service or something analogous) would help fulfill a peculiar need that we have in the United States for transitioning people from high school to college or trade school.
Fleeb - I was referring to LS's saying that they need military service and being fired at with live rounds. Most of the kids I went to college with did either 2 service years (girls) or 3 years in the army (boys). While I think it's miserable and tragic that we need to have a draft, I think that the kids coming off 3 years of army service or 2 years of national service are a lot better prepared to handle college.
I think the average high school graduate needs at least one year of something where you don't sit in a classroom all day before they decide whether they're best off going to college or not.
I think if I were raising a kid in the US, I'd make them take a year and work or volunteer for greenpeace or something before I'd let them start college. And if my son gets an army exemption (which he might b/c of his eye), I think I'll encourage him to take at least a year before college anyway.
I made a lousy decision when I was 16 (applying for colleges), and now I'm 33, in the wrong field, even though I knew from the beginning what I wanted to do, and I don't know a good way to get back where I want to go.
Yeah, I didn't take LS seriously on the points that seemed obviously silly to me, just the bit about service.
Although, in our army, during BASIC training, you may have live rounds fired over you. That happened during my training, at least... they used tracer rounds, so you could see them (and they told us to notice the tracer rounds, in case we didn't believe them).
It didn't seem like a big deal to me at the time, but I suppose I should have reflected a little harder on that experience.
"One long-term study by the Department of Education found that students with high test scores but low-income
parents were less likely to complete college than students with low scores but affluent parents — loosely
speaking, that smart poor kids are less likely than dumb rich kids to get a degree."
This quote, of course, comes from the Usual Suspect (Krugman) over at the NY Times.
How Colleges Discriminate With Price, And Why They Must Stop
George Waldner, 06.10.11, 12:45 PM EDT
It's grossly unfair to students and their parents.
"... A secret about college and university pricing is that the sticker price at 95% of all private institutions
is an arbitrary number... York College of Pennsylvania does things differently. First, we don't operate on a
high-tuition and high-discount model. Expensive schools charge $30,000 to $40,000 a year for tuition and
discount as much as 50%. We charge just over $14,000 a year, and our discount rate is roughly 14%. What you see
is what you will pay."
Ok, a little bit of self-promotion, but valid points raised, others have noted that tuition discounting is at
an all time high -LS
Naturally that doesn't include everyone. Show me a freshman whose major is "undeclared" and I'll show you a waste of tens of thousands of dollars.
Of course, I could be completely off on this. I knew exactly what I wanted to do as I completed high school; I went directly into a university program for my career of choice, and then promptly threw it all away upon entering the workforce and did something completely different. On the other hand, I achieved a lot of personal growth during those years outside of the classroom, so disregard all of this I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.