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[#] Fri Aug 05 2016 12:03:43 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Still playing around today. Obviously the first thing I did was "apt-get install citadel-client" so I could run my Citadel client natively in the environment, but I've already removed that and set up a complete Citadel build environment to see how well it would work. So far the fidelity is quite good. For those who remember "colinux" -- which was basically a Linux kernel running with a Windows OS as the underlying "hardware" -- this feels a lot like it. It could also be compared to User Mode Linux, which ran a Linux kernel over another Linux, but in this case it's Windows sitting underneath.

To be sure, this is NOT a transformation of Windows into a legitimate Linux.
There's no Linux kernel and no D-Bus. And the filesystem integration with the host is not "deep"
in any way; it simply maintains its own filesystem hierarchy within the host.
You don't have to create a virtual block-device with ext4 or whatever on it; it sits within the host's filesystem but there's no meaningful integration between the two other than that you can use normal file management tools to move data back and forth.

For someone who has a use for both operating systems, though, this is *much* more comfortable than running virtual machines to have both at the same time.
As I mentioned earlier though, Microsoft's terminal window is still a piece of crap; definitely use MobaXterm if you are going to spend any reasonable amount of time in this environment.

All else being equal, I'd still rather be running Linux natively. And it's kind of sad that in one fell swoop, now Windows is a better and more usable Unix than Mac OS is, simply by virtue of the entire Debian/Ubuntu userland showing up all at once.

[#] Fri Aug 05 2016 17:43:20 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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All else being equal, I'd still rather be running Linux natively. And

it's kind of sad that in one fell swoop, now Windows is a better and
more usable Unix than Mac OS is, simply by virtue of the entire
Debian/Ubuntu userland showing up all at once.



I have no idea what planet you're on that you could claim that.... Pretty much any unix utility you could want is already there in OSX. There are some things that are missing, but there are usually some equivilent avaialble.


And there are lots of ways to get other OSS on the system if you need it....

[#] Fri Aug 05 2016 17:44:44 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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I think IG's still pissed that OSX killed the idea of desktop Linux completely.

[#] Fri Aug 05 2016 18:28:55 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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OSX is kinda-sorta there but it isn't a real Linux.  And to use it you have to put up with the rest of Mac OS, which, as I've pointed out before, I simply don't like.

 



[#] Sat Aug 06 2016 06:12:34 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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Honestly, get your fingers on a mac, fire up Terminal and start fiddling around. Unlike cmd.exe, this is a rather useful terminal, but I would still recommend iTerm2, feels more real.

You might need to install the X11 Window stuff, if you want gui. But that is rather trivial, and iirc, it will offer you the download the first second you start a gui app.

I can "ssh -Y" into any linux and fire up a program, (almost) right out of the box.

Right now, I am circumventing the nanny-functions in the OSX window manager, which wouldn't let me copy files from a case-sensitive backup to a case-insensitive computer. I use the builtin rsync for that.

Other useful built-in *nix commands I have used are dd, nano, vi(m), emacs. And guess what, you have full access to /dev, if you want to clone a disk, for example. 

The default OSX users might not make any use of all this, they might not even know about it, but if you come from linux, you can have much fun in the cli. There are some things to enchance that, you can install a complete Gentoo userland, if you are masochistic. Or you could install brew ( http://brew.sh ) as package manager and simply fill your disk with pure OSS joy. For example, there is no wget, only curl, in native OSX.

If I need windows apps, I try wine first. If that doesn't help, I use virtualbox. I need a few windows configuration tools for telephone system configuration at client's sites.



[#] Sat Aug 06 2016 22:20:28 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Been there, done that.  I have owned three Macs.  Eventually decided I didn't dig the scene and punched out.  It has unix-like functionality but it's not a real Linux.



[#] Sun Aug 07 2016 12:07:00 EDT from the_mgt @ Uncensored

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Well, using windows as a main machine has not been an alternative for me since 2003 or so. I have it mostly for weird software and some games.

 

Anyway, I have a real reason to bitch about MacroShit software:

Upgraded a whole client office to win10, they have this bastard SBS2011 I ranted about in an earlier post. Because they are cheap as shit, too, they didn't buy any CAL and so no computer is joined to the domain, they only use the Exchange features. In Office2010, everything kept working fine after the upgrade. Only now, that I want to add new exchange accounts to Outlook, I find that the demented cesspool of a sorry excuse for a proper mailclient does not store any password in the credentials manager anymore. No "MS.Outlook:mail@domain.local:PUT" entries are created. This happens on a freshly created local account and on two computers.

I'd count this as normal MS behaviour, random as fuck, but usually at least a few other people on the web rant about similar problems. In this case, noone does seem to have this trouble. Will try a fresh install of office tomorrow, so long I have to resist the urge of torturing that clients laptop to junk. 



[#] Mon Aug 08 2016 14:23:26 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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I would argue that OSX is more real Unix than Linux is.... But that's a whole different argument. We all like what we like.

[#] Mon Aug 08 2016 14:42:12 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Linux is THE gold standard unix at this point. All others are measured by how they measure up to Linux. Apple and Oracle are doing their best to be somewhat Linux-like but only Microsoft has taken the time to bring in a real Linux runtime.

That's the situation on the ground today, of course. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to support it or if it's simply another embrace-extend-extinguish play. We just don't know yet ... with both Bill Hitler Gates and Steve MonkeyBoy Ballmer gone, they might behave. Or they might not.

[#] Thu Aug 18 2016 11:26:31 EDT from Ladyhawke @ Uncensored

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Mon Aug 08 2016 02:42:12 PM EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored
Linux is THE gold standard unix at this point. All others are measured by how they measure up to Linux. Apple and Oracle are doing their best to be somewhat Linux-like but only Microsoft has taken the time to bring in a real Linux runtime.

That's the situation on the ground today, of course. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to support it or if it's simply another embrace-extend-extinguish play. We just don't know yet ... with both Bill Hitler Gates and Steve MonkeyBoy Ballmer gone, they might behave. Or they might not.

I'm sorry.....did I hear you right?  Did you, IG T Foobar, just *praise* your MS Overlord???



[#] Thu Aug 18 2016 17:55:46 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Don't get me wrong, I'd still like to put Bill Gates feet-first into a wood chipper, and run the motor extra slow to savor every moment of his slow and excruciating death, and it would still be only a small fraction of what he deserves.

But we've moved past the chapter in history where Microsoft was an existential threat to everything other than itself. That mantle belongs to Facebook now, and maybe Amazon. And the proper course of action for any reasonable person in this world is to smash Zuckerberg in the face with a baseball bat repeatedly until Facebook ceases to exist.

Linux on the traditional desktop simply hasn't taken hold. In the meantime, however, Linux has utterly dominated every other area of computing: servers, mobile, supercomputing, infrastructure ... pretty much everything.

So I'm ok with the fact that Windows 10 + WSL is a more usable Linux-like system than the one Apple has.

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 02:26:32 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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How can the guy who gave us this do anybody wrong, http://i.imgur.com/Ad6WrGj.jpg

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 02:28:31 EDT from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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So I'm ok with the fact that Windows 10 + WSL is a more usable
Linux-like system than the one Apple has.

IGgish statement noted... I wonder how MS solved some of the classic problems - NTFS has fundamentally different semantics than Unix filesystems (inodes, deletions...) which Unix software tends to rely on...

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 15:47:43 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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I just installed xming on Windows 10 and am running some X-based GUI apps.....
So bizarre.

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 17:20:07 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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problems - NTFS has fundamentally different semantics than Unix
filesystems (inodes, deletions...) which Unix software tends to rely

Seems to work fine:

# date >foo
# date >bar
# ln foo baz
# ln -s bar qux
# ls -li
total 0
48413695994240851 -rwxrwxrwx 1 root root 29 Aug 19 17:14 bar
2251799813693265 -rwxrwxrwx 2 root root 29 Aug 19 17:14 baz
2251799813693265 -rwxrwxrwx 2 root root 29 Aug 19 17:14 foo
72057594037935935 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3 Aug 19 17:14 qux -> bar

This isn't a M$-blessed version of Cygwin. It is a kernel subsystem that provides a mostly complete Linux-like kernel environment. The repository it draws from is the *actual* Ubunto repository, not a port.

Listen, they did a good job here; I'm not one to let my own biases distort reality when I evaluate technology offerings.

Where it *doesn't* run unmodified Linux binaries is when you get into things like D-Bus that depend on specific Linux kernel subsystems that haven't been implemented in WSL. M$ says that this is intended as a development platform rather than a deployment platform.

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 17:21:05 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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How can the guy who gave us this do anybody wrong,
http://i.imgur.com/Ad6WrGj.jpg

What *is* that? It looks like Bill Gates is in need of a slightly smaller tampon.

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 17:24:18 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I just installed xming on Windows 10 and am running some X-based GUI
apps.....
So bizarre.

The latest version of MobaXterm offers this too. One click and it opens up a Linux terminal window with the X server already connected.

[#] Fri Aug 19 2016 17:57:43 EDT from Ragnar Danneskjold @ Uncensored

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In other news, M$ open sources Powershell?!? And it's available for Linux and OSX. We're definitely in bizarroland.

[#] Sat Aug 20 2016 22:07:20 EDT from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Yeesh.  As if it wasn't bad enough having PowerShell on Windows.  Sounds like that communist bitch and arch enemy of open source Miguel Hitler de Icaza is behind this.



[#] Mon Aug 22 2016 11:38:38 EDT from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Yeah, I saw the PowerShell thing and ... well ... I'm kind of a tad frightened.

It's fundamentally a .NET shell. And I kinda hate .NET, but that hatred might border on irrationality, maybe, so I should think it through.

But the bigger problem is that I have to support PowerShell for our product, and the idea of having to support it on multiple platforms kinda makes me want to crawl into a corner and die.

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