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[#] Sat Dec 28 2013 08:49:52 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Citadel Sync needs your help/input

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regarding webdav - this is already possible via webcit.

you can i.e. use cadaver to access your vcards.

vcards are identified using EUIDs so you can edit & replace them.

Tip: aside of reading

http://www.citadel.org/doku.php/documentation:applicationprotocol

simply sniffing webcit talking to citserver is a good way of getting stuff sorted out:

http://www.citadel.org/doku.php/faq:mastering_your_os:net_sniff

however, you need to make shure webcit isn't using unix domain sockets therefore:

http://www.citadel.org/doku.php/documentation:cmdman:webcit

(you can start as many webcits as you like - even remote.



[#] Sat Dec 28 2013 13:00:26 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Hi guys,

I have no idea what is your "priority list", but I have a wish since new year is coming.

Citadel is a great system and a great idea! (lick, lick)

If it has message filtering on body text and headers, that would make it much more powerful and useful, combined with its ability to send messages to mail lists.

Message body filtering, in the system I have developed for the NNTP automatic system, which is pretty much the same base standard as SMTP, can produce miracles, especially in combination with redirection of those messages to the mailing lists and/or other rooms, that could be specially created for the purpose of further processing, as temporary storage for highly filtered messages.

For example, you could subscribe to a list of some rooms with pre-filtering as to what you are interested in receiving. And you can further filter them from the temporary/and/or private room to yet another temporary room and thus creating a sophisticated multistage filtering ability by virtually doing not that much, but by stage filtering, even if you have a single stage pretty simple body filter.

I have developed such a multistage, high performance filtering system, which, even though it is not a regular expression based, does nearly everything you'd ever want, but at 10 times better performance.

Multi-stage means that you have a chain of filters, each of which can filter on ever standard SMTP/NNTP header and includes all the conditions, such as "contains, equals, begins with, ends with" and their NOT counterparts.

Each stage of filter can also contain the sophisticated (but not re based) filters with multiple and/or conditions.

Thus, by chaining these filters you can achieve any imaginable precision of filtering. Because any of those filters can be negated, ei "not" succeding.

So far, in years of using it, I did not find something that I could not do with such filters.

Source code will be available upon request, but it is written in Java, but it is well documented and is written in the simplest and clearest of ways and well commented. So, it should be no problem for C++ programmers to understand what it does. It is a part of a relatively large system for automatic bot-like processing of massive amounts of information, including the archive maintenance, such as message filtering, header normalization (removal of all non-specified headers), message body size limits, date periods and so on.

Every single operation in this system may include the filtering abilities, even while downloading them from the NNTP server or automatically posting any number of them from any number of archives with any kind of crazy filtering with any conceivable condition or desire imaginable. If you want it - it can be done, no matter what you want as far as NNTP goes.

And a last little note:

I wish there would be a way to copy ALL the messages from a room via "outdated and plague-like" text client.

Right now you have to specify the list of message numbers, which in my case is a royal pain, because the room may have many messages that have to be further processed in bulk.

As far as webcit goes, I wish there would be a way to COPY a message and not just MOVE it to another room. Because we may not wish to do any destructive editing to a room.

And, "the same old song" again:

Post EDITING is a MUST, and there is no excuse possible for having such an ability. Because it is a VITAL ability in the information processing/retrieval system which Citadel is.

Citadel is no longer "just some mail server". Nope. And I hope you reconcider your position on this.

SMTP simply ADDS flexibility to it. Because it is a STRUCTURED information representation, where it is totally legal to have the custom X-headers, which ANY news or mail reader will recognize and process without any problems.

The internal storage of those messages is utterly irrelevant.

We simply store our stuff in simplest text form, so you can edit anything you want even with your notepad, and then repost it anywhere you like in bulk or using filters.

That is the idea of an information system I have in mind.

Just don't get pissed with me again and again and again and again. Cause it does not hurt me. But it might hurt YOU as a result. Who knows who stands behind this whole thing?

Do you think your system was chosen accidentally?

Tell you a secret, just don't tell anybody:

NOT A CHANCE!

You system has been chosen in the global information system of such sophistication that it might crack some sculls.

Enjoy.

 

 

 

 

 



[#] Sat Dec 28 2013 13:15:00 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

 

Sat Dec 28 2013 13:00:26 EST from platonov @ Uncensored Subject: To developers: Message Filtering

Hi guys,

I have no idea what is your "priority list", but I have a wish since new year is coming.

Citadel is a great system and a great idea! (lick, lick)

If it has message filtering on body text and headers, that would make it much more powerful and useful, combined with its ability to send messages to mail lists.

Message body filtering, in the system I have developed for the NNTP automatic system, which is pretty much the same base standard as SMTP, can produce miracles, especially in combination with redirection of those messages to the mailing lists and/or other rooms, that could be specially created for the purpose of further processing, as temporary storage for highly filtered messages.

For example, you could subscribe to a list of some rooms with pre-filtering as to what you are interested in receiving. And you can further filter them from the temporary/and/or private room to yet another temporary room and thus creating a sophisticated multistage filtering ability by virtually doing not that much, but by stage filtering, even if you have a single stage pretty simple body filter.

I have developed such a multistage, high performance filtering system, which, even though it is not a regular expression based, does nearly everything you'd ever want, but at 10 times better performance.

Multi-stage means that you have a chain of filters, each of which can filter on ever standard SMTP/NNTP header and includes all the conditions, such as "contains, equals, begins with, ends with" and their NOT counterparts.

Each stage of filter can also contain the sophisticated (but not re based) filters with multiple and/or conditions.

Thus, by chaining these filters you can achieve any imaginable precision of filtering. Because any of those filters can be negated, ei "not" succeding.

So far, in years of using it, I did not find something that I could not do with such filters.

Source code will be available upon request, but it is written in Java, but it is well documented and is written in the simplest and clearest of ways and well commented. So, it should be no problem for C++ programmers to understand what it does. It is a part of a relatively large system for automatic bot-like processing of massive amounts of information, including the archive maintenance, such as message filtering, header normalization (removal of all non-specified headers), message body size limits, date periods and so on.

Every single operation in this system may include the filtering abilities, even while downloading them from the NNTP server or automatically posting any number of them from any number of archives with any kind of crazy filtering with any conceivable condition or desire imaginable. If you want it - it can be done, no matter what you want as far as NNTP goes.

And a last little note:

I wish there would be a way to copy ALL the messages from a room via "outdated and plague-like" text client.

Right now you have to specify the list of message numbers, which in my case is a royal pain, because the room may have many messages that have to be further processed in bulk.

As far as webcit goes, I wish there would be a way to COPY a message and not just MOVE it to another room. Because we may not wish to do any destructive editing to a room.

And, "the same old song" again:

Post EDITING is a MUST, and there is no excuse possible for having such an ability. Because it is a VITAL ability in the information processing/retrieval system which Citadel is.

Citadel is no longer "just some mail server". Nope. And I hope you reconcider your position on this.

SMTP simply ADDS flexibility to it. Because it is a STRUCTURED information representation, where it is totally legal to have the custom X-headers, which ANY news or mail reader will recognize and process without any problems.

The internal storage of those messages is utterly irrelevant.

We simply store our stuff in simplest text form, so you can edit anything you want even with your notepad, and then repost it anywhere you like in bulk or using filters.

That is the idea of an information system I have in mind.

Just don't get pissed with me again and again and again and again. Cause it does not hurt me. But it might hurt YOU as a result. Who knows who stands behind this whole thing?

Do you think your system was chosen accidentally?

Tell you a secret, just don't tell anybody:

NOT A CHANCE!

You system has been chosen in the global information system of such sophistication that it might crack some sculls.

Enjoy.

We just need to find a way to interface to YOUR system. As I said, we are working with plain text storage format, which is sufficient in our needs.

We can take over "the miracle part" of the system once we can see how this interface can be implemented. Our system runs on both, Linux and Windows or on anything that has the JVM (Java Virtual Machine).

Once we see how we can interface to you without spending a leg or months or even weeks of our time, I'll be happy. Because they'll see the miracles they have never seen before. I promise.

:)

What a ball!



[#] Sat Dec 28 2013 20:59:10 EST from hansi2323 @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: webcit displays folders for folders that via imap are not empty

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Hi,
now I tried around more and found out that really webcit is the problem. I tried several clients, most of them can display entries from other clients, only webcit only displays it's own entries. Citadel commandline client behaves the same way webcit does. Webcit not even displays tasks created by Lightning/Thunderbird, I set it up exactly as stated on http://www.citadel.org/doku.php/faq:favoriteclient:using_your_citadel_calendar_and_contacts_in_thunderbird, that makes me perplexed. Any ideas how I can create tasks, calender entries, notes and contacts using an external client? I thought this was one of the basic citadel features, so I wonder if this really can be so difficult or what I'm doing wrong.



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 02:13:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]


platonov --

What you're describing is interesting.

Since we've already built what generally amounts to an internal API for extensions, I wonder if we can boil down the requirements for your idea to a specific set of interfaces that need to be made available for you to do your thing?

As for editing existing messages, as previously mentioned it does present some challenges given our data model, but there are some places in the existing system where we do need it. For example, even though I would frown upon editing an email after it's been sent, we also can't edit a blog post, which is generally something other blogging software allows. I suppose a local site policy setting could determine that.

What you're describing sounds "big" enough that it would warrant a separate room to discuss and track. Why don't you go ahead and create a hidden room for that, post the name of the room here and anyone interested can go there so we can hash out the details.

[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 09:10:33 EST from Freakdog @ Dog Pound BBS II

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Minor typo to report in the text client's "Replace string" function's prompts:

When you go to replace some text, the prompt reads:

Enter test to be replaced:

Instead of "Enter text to be replaced:"

The second string is fine:

Enter text to replace it with:

[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 10:22:55 EST from whiskers75 @ Uncensored

Subject: Push mail? (No, not Funambol)

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Is there ANY support for push email in Citadel? No, not Funambol, that does nothing and doesn't work anyway.



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 14:49:24 EST from mingodad @ Uncensored

Subject: How to edit a draft ?

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

I'm just starting with citadel and I like the concept but I can not understand how we can edit a draft document, I can only see options to reply, forward not to edit the draft itself.

How it's supposed to work ?

Thanks in advance for any help !



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 15:15:45 EST from ckosloff @ Uncensored

Subject: Citadel on Debian repo

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I am a Debian fanboy, running a VPS with Debian 7 (actually Debian next), I can install Citadel from repo, that would be my preferred method as it would ensure compatibility with the other Debian packages, I wouldn't be using the easy install, right?

Please clarify as I am a total newb to Citadel, did not even install it yet.



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 18:10:16 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

 

Sun Dec 29 2013 02:13:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

platonov --

What you're describing is interesting.

Since we've already built what generally amounts to an internal API for extensions, I wonder if we can boil down the requirements for your idea to a specific set of interfaces that need to be made available for you to do your thing?

As for editing existing messages, as previously mentioned it does present some challenges given our data model, but there are some places in the existing system where we do need it. For example, even though I would frown upon editing an email after it's been sent, we also can't edit a blog post, which is generally something other blogging software allows. I suppose a local site policy setting could determine that.

What you're describing sounds "big" enough that it would warrant a separate room to discuss and track. Why don't you go ahead and create a hidden room for that, post the name of the room here and anyone interested can go there so we can hash out the details.

Hi,

As far as creating a room on uncensored, somehow I feel hesitant to do it hear and there some reasons for it. One of them, is that this whole thing may quickly become like some deviation from "the party line", from the main stream of ideology and that which is "actual problems" or issues, and not just like some "wild goose chase". And there are other considerations as well.

I don't mind create a room on my citadel system for the Citadel floor that already exists. Actually, I have already created one, in case someone is interested, and you can self-subscribe to it if you want to.

The room name is "Future of Citadel as Information System".

To subscribe to it goto:

http://preciseinfo.org:2000/listsub

As far as trying to develop the interface, I am all for it with both hands. But I am also totally swamped with work to be done and it needs a constant attention and mending. I can squeeze out some time, could be on a daily basis, just to see if we can come up with some architecture.

I just threw this idea out primarily of my interest in filtering on Citadel. I'd LOVE to see that implemented, and sure, I'll throw this "post editing is a MUST" issue every time I have to do it.

Because without post editing, this system becomes not that useful for some serious and real information exchange. Because in that situation, you don't just type one-liner and quite meaningless posts and just forget about it. No. Every word counts and every message is something precious as far as information system goes, which, in turns, implies the post editing ability. Besides that, every modern blog or bulletin board system has this ability. So, it is not just some "miracle" for many users and they are likely ask the question: "why do I need this system if it can not do what any other dedicated bb or blog system does"? And that is quite fair of a question.

Anyway, in terms of interfacing, there are number of ways to approach this issue. Like who is "the client" and who is the "server" and of what? As far as system I have developed, we talk the NNTP talk. That is, it is assumed that there is the NNTP server that can be polled periodically to get the updates. Once we get the updates, they are stored in archives. From then on, the "miracle part" begins, which is actually the main job - processing the information in a highly filtered manner and then, possibly generating the web pages of selected material using the templated approach, meaning the pages could be automatically constructed out of a number of templates specifying the HTML page layout and so on.

Or, these messages could be filtered and stored in some other archives to be eventually posted to the server.

In that respect, who is the server and who is a client with Citadel coupling issue.

All I know is that if I can access the citadel and recover the message updates in the NNTP format, then I have a job function, where you can perform any operation supported (major things) on a periodic basis. And in the job file you have the name of the operation configuration file names. So, when you do a job, you sequentially execute the operation list on that job, and that could be anything you want out of standard operation list.

This means that I, as a client, would connect to the Citadel, get updates from the rooms I am interested, then do my information "magic" on them and then automatically repost the results to some room.

That means that the Citadel needs to provide me a port, to which I can connect to and expect it behaving like a regular NNTP server. That would be the easiest way to do it from my standpoint. Then I could post my results to any room, that will look to me as a standard NNTP group. And that will update the Citadel system with "the latest and greatest" information.

We can also do it via "undesirables" interface on Citadel of a pure text client. There are some not very pleasant issues as far as command structure goes, but nothing of it represents any kind of problem even worth mentioning.

So, via text client inrefrace, I can query Citadel and get the updates, as long as I know your latest message number for all the new messages to a room, just like on the NNTP server. In which case, I can request a list of message numbers from Citdel on a sequential basis, one by one at a time.

The reason I really mentioned filters is because that is precisely where the power of citadel as information system comes in. Because in a focused, "high quality" information stream, which might be huge amounts of information updates, what is HIGHLY desirable is to SELECT the information of your interest instead of being flooded by ALL sorts of things "you could care less about". That is the idea.

Take, for example filtered news distribution system. Citadel can update itself from the RSS feeds and store it in the internal database. Then this information can be filtered and fed back to citadel to some focused targeted room. So, when someone queries that room, the will get precisely what they are interested in, well, for as long as your filter specifications allow for complex multiple filter conditions, and we can do that easily, with any complexity of filter imaginable, that you could not even describe in a RE expression without making it miles long. That is the beauty of our filter design. Because filter specifications are automatically produced from the GUI based interface, which is simple and intuitive. You don't have to crack your scull just to understand your re's to do any filtering of any real worth as far as information streams go.

But I'd LOVE to see the filtering abilities in Citadel within itself. Because then the very issue of running some external processing bot simply evaporate. But I am not sure if this will require quite some efforts to do it in citadel internally and I am not sure there is enough developer resources to take upon this project. But it would be great indeed.

So, the "bottom line" is: either we have a tight coupling with citadel, or we have a loose coupling, it general purpose interface of a text client type. We can look at other alternatives, but all of them will require more work.

Any way you cut it, it may be time for citadel to provide the general purpose interface to its internal functionality and features.

So, this is just a few points as introduction to the very idea.

The rest is up to you. You are welcome to post to that room on my system or create a new room on the Citadel floor and you can start posting right now if you wish.

Good luck, everybody.

 



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 19:10:48 EST from grobe0ba @ Uncensored

Subject: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Messages produced by Citadel's MTA have a massively incorrect date in them. I've seen some from the early 1900's to in the 70's, but none are correct. The server's time is correct, and synchronized with ntpdate. I didn't see anything in the FAQs or other Docs mentioning anything like this. Any pointers would be appreciated.

 

TIA,

Grobe



[#] Sun Dec 29 2013 19:13:35 EST from grobe0ba @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Disregard. The problem lies not in the generated messages, but something between Thunderbird and the MTA's imapd. Dates are appearing correctly in WebCIT, but not Thunderbird.



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 04:36:28 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

 

Sun Dec 29 2013 19:13:35 EST from grobe0ba @ Uncensored Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

Disregard. The problem lies not in the generated messages, but something between Thunderbird and the MTA's imapd. Dates are appearing correctly in WebCIT, but not Thunderbird.



press STRG+U in t'bird to view the plain message - and observe the timestamps in them. maybe TBird fails parsing them?



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 04:41:27 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Push mail? (No, not Funambol)

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Sun Dec 29 2013 10:22:55 EST from whiskers75 @ Uncensored Subject: Push mail? (No, not Funambol)

Is there ANY support for push email in Citadel? No, not Funambol, that does nothing and doesn't work anyway.

The funambol notification does work, and the message template can be replaced.

If i.e. you'd intend to send APNS, you will find sample php code on the 'net that does so.



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 04:43:21 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Citadel on Debian repo

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Sun Dec 29 2013 15:15:45 EST from ckosloff @ Uncensored Subject: Citadel on Debian repo

I am a Debian fanboy, running a VPS with Debian 7 (actually Debian next), I can install Citadel from repo, that would be my preferred method as it would ensure compatibility with the other Debian packages, I wouldn't be using the easy install, right?

Please clarify as I am a total newb to Citadel, did not even install it yet.

exactly - usually either easy install or prepackaged is to be used.

The delta:

http://www.citadel.org/doku.php/documentation:file_layout

 



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 08:12:11 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

 

Sun Dec 29 2013 02:13:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

platonov --

What you're describing is interesting.

Since we've already built what generally amounts to an internal API for extensions, I wonder if we can boil down the requirements for your idea to a specific set of interfaces that need to be made available for you to do your thing?

As for editing existing messages, as previously mentioned it does present some challenges given our data model, but there are some places in the existing system where we do need it. For example, even though I would frown upon editing an email after it's been sent, we also can't edit a blog post, which is generally something other blogging software allows. I suppose a local site policy setting could determine that.

What you're describing sounds "big" enough that it would warrant a separate room to discuss and track. Why don't you go ahead and create a hidden room for that, post the name of the room here and anyone interested can go there so we can hash out the details.

Hi,

As far as creating a room on uncensored, somehow I feel hesitant to do it hear and there some reasons for it. One of them, is that this whole thing may quickly become like some deviation from "the party line", from the main stream of ideology and that which is "actual problems" or issues, and not just like some "wild goose chase". And there are other considerations as well.

I don't mind create a room on my citadel system for the Citadel floor that already exists. Actually, I have already created one, in case someone is interested, and you can self-subscribe to it if you want to.

The room name is "Future of Citadel as Information System".

To subscribe to it goto:

http://preciseinfo.org:2000/listsub

As far as trying to develop the interface, I am all for it with both hands. But I am also totally swamped with work to be done and it needs a constant attention and mending. I can squeeze out some time, could be on a daily basis, just to see if we can come up with some architecture.

I just threw this idea out primarily of my interest in filtering on Citadel. I'd LOVE to see that implemented, and sure, I'll throw this "post editing is a MUST" issue every time I have to do it.

Because without post editing, this system becomes not that useful for some serious and real information exchange. Because in that situation, you don't just type one-liner and quite meaningless posts and just forget about it. No. Every word counts and every message is something precious as far as information system goes, which, in turns, implies the post editing ability. Besides that, every modern blog or bulletin board system has this ability. So, it is not just some "miracle" for many users and they are likely ask the question: "why do I need this system if it can not do what any other dedicated bb or blog system does"? And that is quite fair of a question.

Anyway, in terms of interfacing, there are number of ways to approach this issue. Like who is "the client" and who is the "server" and of what? As far as system I have developed, we talk the NNTP talk. That is, it is assumed that there is the NNTP server that can be polled periodically to get the updates. Once we get the updates, they are stored in archives. From then on, the "miracle part" begins, which is actually the main job - processing the information in a highly filtered manner and then, possibly generating the web pages of selected material using the templated approach, meaning the pages could be automatically constructed out of a number of templates specifying the HTML page layout and so on.

Or, these messages could be filtered and stored in some other archives to be eventually posted to the server.

In that respect, who is the server and who is a client with Citadel coupling issue.

All I know is that if I can access the citadel and recover the message updates in the NNTP format, then I have a job function, where you can perform any operation supported (major things) on a periodic basis. And in the job file you have the name of the operation configuration file names. So, when you do a job, you sequentially execute the operation list on that job, and that could be anything you want out of standard operation list.

This means that I, as a client, would connect to the Citadel, get updates from the rooms I am interested, then do my information "magic" on them and then automatically repost the results to some room.

That means that the Citadel needs to provide me a port, to which I can connect to and expect it behaving like a regular NNTP server. That would be the easiest way to do it from my standpoint. Then I could post my results to any room, that will look to me as a standard NNTP group. And that will update the Citadel system with "the latest and greatest" information.

We can also do it via "undesirables" interface on Citadel of a pure text client. There are some not very pleasant issues as far as command structure goes, but nothing of it represents any kind of problem even worth mentioning.

So, via text client inrefrace, I can query Citadel and get the updates, as long as I know your latest message number for all the new messages to a room, just like on the NNTP server. In which case, I can request a list of message numbers from Citdel on a sequential basis, one by one at a time.

The reason I really mentioned filters is because that is precisely where the power of citadel as information system comes in. Because in a focused, "high quality" information stream, which might be huge amounts of information updates, what is HIGHLY desirable is to SELECT the information of your interest instead of being flooded by ALL sorts of things "you could care less about". That is the idea.

Take, for example filtered news distribution system. Citadel can update itself from the RSS feeds and store it in the internal database. Then this information can be filtered and fed back to citadel to some focused targeted room. So, when someone queries that room, the will get precisely what they are interested in, well, for as long as your filter specifications allow for complex multiple filter conditions, and we can do that easily, with any complexity of filter imaginable, that you could not even describe in a RE expression without making it miles long. That is the beauty of our filter design. Because filter specifications are automatically produced from the GUI based interface, which is simple and intuitive. You don't have to crack your scull just to understand your re's to do any filtering of any real worth as far as information streams go.

But I'd LOVE to see the filtering abilities in Citadel within itself. Because then the very issue of running some external processing bot simply evaporate. But I am not sure if this will require quite some efforts to do it in citadel internally and I am not sure there is enough developer resources to take upon this project. But it would be great indeed.

So, the "bottom line" is: either we have a tight coupling with citadel, or we have a loose coupling, it general purpose interface of a text client type. We can look at other alternatives, but all of them will require more work.

Any way you cut it, it may be time for citadel to provide the general purpose interface to its internal functionality and features.

So, this is just a few points as introduction to the very idea.

The rest is up to you. You are welcome to post to that room on my system or create a new room on the Citadel floor and you can start posting right now if you wish.

Good luck, everybody.

 



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 08:29:08 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

[Reply] [ReplyQuoted] [Headers] [Print]

Hi everyone,

I notice there is a duplicate of my last post. I have not done anything I know of to post a duplicate. Who knows, it could be just refreshing the page and citadel, somehow, was in a state that it thought I am in editing mode, while I was not and did not see any trace of editing on my screen.

So, if for some crazy reason it was me, then sorry, I did not mean that and you are welcome to deleted that duplicate, as far as I am concerned.



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 08:50:29 EST from platonov @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

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Btw. if you decide to consider the approach of making Citadel behave like the NNTP sever of limited features, from what I can comprehend, there is very little work on your part to implement a few standard NNTP commands, and there are only few of them. But cancelling a message is highly desirable, and so is supersede, which is exactly the same operation as post editing I keep talking about. All other operations are just "peanuts" from the standpoint of citadel operation.

The benefit of that approach is that we have the most seamless coupling, and it does not even if people decide to install it, and citadel itself remains strictly the way it is designed. It is just a little extra power or functionality it provides that may, nevertheless, make probably the most powerful system "out there", but don't quote me on that, who knows?

Mon Dec 30 2013 08:12:11 EST from platonov @ Uncensored Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

 

Sun Dec 29 2013 02:13:01 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored Subject: Re: To developers: Message Filtering

platonov --

What you're describing is interesting.

Since we've already built what generally amounts to an internal API for extensions, I wonder if we can boil down the requirements for your idea to a specific set of interfaces that need to be made available for you to do your thing?

As for editing existing messages, as previously mentioned it does present some challenges given our data model, but there are some places in the existing system where we do need it. For example, even though I would frown upon editing an email after it's been sent, we also can't edit a blog post, which is generally something other blogging software allows. I suppose a local site policy setting could determine that.

What you're describing sounds "big" enough that it would warrant a separate room to discuss and track. Why don't you go ahead and create a hidden room for that, post the name of the room here and anyone interested can go there so we can hash out the details.

Hi,

As far as creating a room on uncensored, somehow I feel hesitant to do it hear and there some reasons for it. One of them, is that this whole thing may quickly become like some deviation from "the party line", from the main stream of ideology and that which is "actual problems" or issues, and not just like some "wild goose chase". And there are other considerations as well.

I don't mind create a room on my citadel system for the Citadel floor that already exists. Actually, I have already created one, in case someone is interested, and you can self-subscribe to it if you want to.

The room name is "Future of Citadel as Information System".

To subscribe to it goto:

http://preciseinfo.org:2000/listsub

As far as trying to develop the interface, I am all for it with both hands. But I am also totally swamped with work to be done and it needs a constant attention and mending. I can squeeze out some time, could be on a daily basis, just to see if we can come up with some architecture.

I just threw this idea out primarily of my interest in filtering on Citadel. I'd LOVE to see that implemented, and sure, I'll throw this "post editing is a MUST" issue every time I have to do it.

Because without post editing, this system becomes not that useful for some serious and real information exchange. Because in that situation, you don't just type one-liner and quite meaningless posts and just forget about it. No. Every word counts and every message is something precious as far as information system goes, which, in turns, implies the post editing ability. Besides that, every modern blog or bulletin board system has this ability. So, it is not just some "miracle" for many users and they are likely ask the question: "why do I need this system if it can not do what any other dedicated bb or blog system does"? And that is quite fair of a question.

Anyway, in terms of interfacing, there are number of ways to approach this issue. Like who is "the client" and who is the "server" and of what? As far as system I have developed, we talk the NNTP talk. That is, it is assumed that there is the NNTP server that can be polled periodically to get the updates. Once we get the updates, they are stored in archives. From then on, the "miracle part" begins, which is actually the main job - processing the information in a highly filtered manner and then, possibly generating the web pages of selected material using the templated approach, meaning the pages could be automatically constructed out of a number of templates specifying the HTML page layout and so on.

Or, these messages could be filtered and stored in some other archives to be eventually posted to the server.

In that respect, who is the server and who is a client with Citadel coupling issue.

All I know is that if I can access the citadel and recover the message updates in the NNTP format, then I have a job function, where you can perform any operation supported (major things) on a periodic basis. And in the job file you have the name of the operation configuration file names. So, when you do a job, you sequentially execute the operation list on that job, and that could be anything you want out of standard operation list.

This means that I, as a client, would connect to the Citadel, get updates from the rooms I am interested, then do my information "magic" on them and then automatically repost the results to some room.

That means that the Citadel needs to provide me a port, to which I can connect to and expect it behaving like a regular NNTP server. That would be the easiest way to do it from my standpoint. Then I could post my results to any room, that will look to me as a standard NNTP group. And that will update the Citadel system with "the latest and greatest" information.

We can also do it via "undesirables" interface on Citadel of a pure text client. There are some not very pleasant issues as far as command structure goes, but nothing of it represents any kind of problem even worth mentioning.

So, via text client inrefrace, I can query Citadel and get the updates, as long as I know your latest message number for all the new messages to a room, just like on the NNTP server. In which case, I can request a list of message numbers from Citdel on a sequential basis, one by one at a time.

The reason I really mentioned filters is because that is precisely where the power of citadel as information system comes in. Because in a focused, "high quality" information stream, which might be huge amounts of information updates, what is HIGHLY desirable is to SELECT the information of your interest instead of being flooded by ALL sorts of things "you could care less about". That is the idea.

Take, for example filtered news distribution system. Citadel can update itself from the RSS feeds and store it in the internal database. Then this information can be filtered and fed back to citadel to some focused targeted room. So, when someone queries that room, the will get precisely what they are interested in, well, for as long as your filter specifications allow for complex multiple filter conditions, and we can do that easily, with any complexity of filter imaginable, that you could not even describe in a RE expression without making it miles long. That is the beauty of our filter design. Because filter specifications are automatically produced from the GUI based interface, which is simple and intuitive. You don't have to crack your scull just to understand your re's to do any filtering of any real worth as far as information streams go.

But I'd LOVE to see the filtering abilities in Citadel within itself. Because then the very issue of running some external processing bot simply evaporate. But I am not sure if this will require quite some efforts to do it in citadel internally and I am not sure there is enough developer resources to take upon this project. But it would be great indeed.

So, the "bottom line" is: either we have a tight coupling with citadel, or we have a loose coupling, it general purpose interface of a text client type. We can look at other alternatives, but all of them will require more work.

Any way you cut it, it may be time for citadel to provide the general purpose interface to its internal functionality and features.

So, this is just a few points as introduction to the very idea.

The rest is up to you. You are welcome to post to that room on my system or create a new room on the Citadel floor and you can start posting right now if you wish.

Good luck, everybody.

 



 



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 13:01:15 EST from jame @ Rocasa Mail System

Subject: Re: Citadel on Debian repo

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Sun Dec 29 2013 15:15:45 EST from ckosloff @ Uncensored

I am a Debian fanboy, running a VPS with Debian 7 (actually Debian next),

   So you're running Debian Testing? ("jessie")  That currently has Citadel v8.20...

I can install Citadel from repo, that would be my preferred method as it would ensure compatibility with the other Debian packages, I wouldn't be using the easy install, right?

As dothebert noted, either is usable;  however, the pre-packaged Debian versions are what I've been using myself.  Two installations; both started on Debian v6, since upgraded to Debian v7.  Both currently running Citadel v8.14 (although using Postfix as the primary mailer...).

I'm going to be putting another system together that'll use Citadel as well (besides what I might use for local testing). Thinking of using Debian Testing for that; the freeze for the next Debian version isn't until next November, so I wouldn't be surprised to see updated versions of Citadel show up there before that...

 

 

Jame



[#] Mon Dec 30 2013 13:51:00 EST from grobe0ba @ Uncensored

Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

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Mon Dec 30 2013 04:36:28 EST from dothebart @ Uncensored Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

 

Sun Dec 29 2013 19:13:35 EST from grobe0ba @ Uncensored Subject: Re: Date/Time in E-Mail headers is incorrect

Disregard. The problem lies not in the generated messages, but something between Thunderbird and the MTA's imapd. Dates are appearing correctly in WebCIT, but not Thunderbird.



press STRG+U in t'bird to view the plain message - and observe the timestamps in them. maybe TBird fails parsing them?



You're quite correct. They are correct in the headers. I'll have to fiddle with Thunderbird. Thanks!



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