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[#] Sat Nov 17 2018 12:32:07 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Cite? I'd like to learn more about that.

[#] Sun Nov 18 2018 18:44:16 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I don't have the exact articles I was looking at, on hand at the moment, but I'm getting more and more up speed on this and can answer questions.

Docker for MacOSX hosts Linux processes in a virtualbox. It's not bad, but it has some severe performance issues for certain workloads.

Docker for Windows hosts Linux processes in some virtual machine. Not sure what the virtualization technology is right now, but they're building a HyperV solution (as an alternative?) which is bad for some scenarios, because HyperV imposes severe performance penalties on the Windows host for certain desktop workloads, particularly if you have Nvidia drivers installed there will be a lot of TLB thrashing.

WSL isn't up to the task of running Docker yet, either, because its support for iptables is mostly just a stub. It can run parts of docker, but not docker-compose, and everybody is using docker-compose.

So if, like me, you want to develop for Docker and you don't want to run Linux on the bare metal, you'll be running an actual Linux kernel in a virtualization environment on etiher Windows or Mac OS X. So you might as well just skip the lackluster VM's that are built into Docker for Windows / Docker for OSX and run a VM that you have full control over. The best options are Virtualbox (free, but less graphics performance) or VMWare Workstation Pro (about $250, but might be an affordable luxury if you want a bit better graphics performance.)

[#] Mon Nov 19 2018 12:20:10 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Right, I knew they were using a minimal HyperV/Linux footprint to run Docker containers on Windows, but I was hoping you could point to where they intend to move both development and deployment onto that environment. I've had such a good experience with WSL that it seems weird that they'd do anything other than move more towards that direction.

If the industry is moving towards "Docker All The Things" then that could be good ... it would give us the ability to finally build packages that will work on every version of Linux *and* on Windows. I don't see it working very well for desktop software, but who writes desktop software anymore? :)

[#] Mon Nov 19 2018 16:22:41 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I don't know what to tell you. I spent some time searching for exactly what you're looking for, and it definitely doesn't exist yet. I couldn't even find any blog posts that say "we're working on it."

I would definitely prefer WSL to the full-virt solutions if they could get it to work. That would just be a really cool solution if all the issues were ironed out. So hopefully, proper iptables support will show up in some future Insider build.

[#] Tue Nov 27 2018 09:36:21 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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don't see it working very well for desktop software, but who writes
desktop software anymore? :)


[#] Thu Dec 06 2018 15:33:45 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Look on the bright side, if you write desktop software you'll still have to be paid to write it for every platform. Have fun. :)

[#] Tue Dec 11 2018 07:48:16 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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If it's a GUI, the smart money seems to be on writing it on something like Electron, where you blend web development with application development in a way that lets you create something that's cross platform.

You're mostly writing for Chrome at that point.

[#] Thu Dec 27 2018 15:14:44 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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Dunno why someone would do that when they could just run Qt everywhere. (It even works with Python now!)

[#] Wed Jan 02 2019 09:48:40 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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1. Qt requires learning Qt, at the very least. Which only really works with Qt. Whereas an Electron app can be easily turned into a web page.
2. Qt requires the Qt libs, which may mean dealing with FOSS stuff. Electron does, too, but isn't as fussy as Qt about it.

For my needs, at least, Qt is not an option.

Concern #1 there, though, kind of makes me sad in some ways. We're turning JavaScript into the language of choice for GUI development. Is this really a good idea?

[#] Sat Jan 12 2019 15:37:32 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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JavaScript is becoming the language of choice for pretty much everything, actually. Except for the Gotards who think they're going to replace C with Go. We call those people "future C programmers"

[#] Sat Jan 12 2019 17:32:48 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Maybe, I dunno... JavaScript is just... er... strange in certain ways.

[#] Mon Jan 28 2019 09:50:54 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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JavaScript was a hack, just like PHP was. It just happens to have evolved into a real language somewhat more elegantly than PHP did.

[#] Wed Jan 30 2019 12:18:31 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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There's that.

You can't retcon a language. You have to build with whatever came before.

And nobody can anticipate where programmers will want to go with a language.
At least, not perfectly. So, yeah, sometimes the language goes absolutely south, but sometimes it just kinda gets weird, but manages to hang on.

C++... heh... to consider a language that's grown weird thanks to evolution.

[#] Thu Jan 31 2019 19:12:34 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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So yeah, my new shop runs node.js. I'm not a huge fan. Seems like a toy environment. But that's what we said about Java back in 2000-2004.

TypeScript makes it less horrible, but the underpinnings are weak. Absolutely no preemptive scheduling, so you have to resort to hacks if you're doing anything cpu-intenssive. Cluster mode is really suboptimal - 1 heap per cpu core. and so on.

People complain a lot about threaded languages, but I never had a huge problem with Java. You do have to keep a close eye on your junior programmers to make sure they don't mutate the class variables of service classes, but it's not usually a big problem.

A lot of the thread-hostile languages take their hostility just a little too far. It would be nice to have a language where state is shared-nothing *by default* but can easily be shared...

[#] Thu Jan 31 2019 19:15:27 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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You can't retcon a language. You have to build with whatever came

yeah, PHP tried retconning (php5) and look where it got them. python3 broke everything too, but at least they were a lot more explicit about separating the versions and the migration path.

[#] Fri Feb 01 2019 11:58:03 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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retcon? was is das?

[#] Fri Feb 01 2019 15:49:52 EST from Haven @ Uncensored

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Retcon = Retroactive Continuity.   Often used in fiction, in how someone might rewrite a past event in the story.   

From the web:

  1. 1.
    (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
    "we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu"
  1. 1.
    revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
    "I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned"

[#] Sat Feb 02 2019 11:17:18 EST from IGnatius T Foobar @ Uncensored

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I was able to learn as much from a quick DDG search. I'm trying to understand how the word applies to programming languages.

[#] Tue Feb 05 2019 12:07:37 EST from LoanShark @ Uncensored

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I took his usage of that word to mean, "changing the semantics of a language in a highly backwards-incompatible way, because of better-design-remorse on the part of the language designer"

[#] Mon Feb 18 2019 10:33:11 EST from fleeb @ Uncensored

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Yeah, LS got it.

In my mind, when you retcon a comic book, you're changing the character's backstory to fit some other direction that you want to take the character.

But you can't do the same thing with a computer language... you can't just change the language to make it go in new direction (at least, if it is a well-used language), because all the old code relying on the broken semantics of the old language constructs requires it continue to work that way. You'd impose a ridiculous amount of work on so many people, they'd most likely abandon the language rather than embrace the change.

Which is kind of funny, as people might abandon the language eventually anyway if it continues to make their job harder.

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